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AMD No longer a viable option for mid-high end? - Page 9  

post #81 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

No, I'm saying that someone personally liking X over Y for "better user experience" (without proof attached) isn't really a valid argument for why X is preferable over Y.

For example;

I could say that I love the user experience I had with my P55 system and that it was better than the one I have had with my Z87. However that would not make P55 any better objectively, and it shouldn't make someone buy P55 over P67, or 990FX, or X79, or Z87 or whatever.

You simply put a lot of value in benchmark scores, which is completely understandable. There's no shortage of overclocking enthusiasts that are borderline obsessed with those numbers. I don't need scores to validate my opinion. I have all the proof I need when I hit the power button. It's not really important to prove that to anyone else , but I really don't think it's within anyone's ability to say It is impossible for me to be happier with AMD than Intel. I take exception with those who make statements such as in the OP. It's very misleading. I have them both, why wouldn't I use the one that best suits my needs?

Earlier you stated that I might be experiencing a "placebo effect", (I disagree fwiw) is it equally possible that you are so influenced by the benchmark numbers that it has created a bias in your mind towards the FX's during normal use?

I consider what my customers do with their machines before making a recommendation. At the present time I feel there are very few situations where they are better off spending more money for the 4670K vs the FX-8320 or 8350. The 8 core is in a much better position for the future than the 4 core, history seems to agree with me.
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post #82 of 1593
I'm not bothered with OC numbers because there are benchmarks that compare them all stock, and they test them with a lot of different benchmarks.. It's not just one and then it's done it's a lot a benchmarks.. Those are the numbers I care about.
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post #83 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

They both are, in their respective price ranges.

Take me for example, I do a lot of encoding, multithreaded tasks, etc and my main game is bf3 (now BF4) online.

Is an FX-8320/8350 somehow not the better choice here for the price range?

Besides, people mock the single thread performance, and it's true its a fair bit behind, but what in all reality at even it's current level can it not play with very good frame rates?

Only worthwhile upgrade for someone like me is a six-core intel due to having four additional threads over my current setup, but at their price range it's a whole different league of cpu.

I mean seriously, an 8320 is $150 on amazon... That is less then half of the price of a NON K 4770... If that isn't a viable option for someone who does things like me (which is fairly common mind you) then I don't know what to think anymore. And we all know you can get to 8350 level with a multiplier change on a stock cooler so essentially an 8350 for $150.

Nothing intel has competes in that price range for overall performance. The cheapest, lowest spec desktop i5 (again, non-k) is $180.

The closest thing they have to this is the i3-4340, which I actually think is a great cpu for older titles and general tasks. However, with it truly being a dual core + ht, it simply cannot compete with an 8320/8350 overall and we all know this especially once overclocking is considered.

And even this cpu is $10 more then a 8320..

Point I'm trying to make comes down to the budget of the specific builder.

The one thing that annoys me the most in "AMD vs Intel" debates is that yes Intel might be faster in single thread performance but that doesn't equal to AMD being "slow." There isn't a game that a 8320/8350 can't handle that Intel can.

Intel might bench higher numbers. That doesn't imply that AMD can't run games at max setttings. AMD CPUs easily can. Those higher numbers don't relate to actually worth while noticeable difference. 150fps AMD vs 170fps Intel or 60fps AMD vs 77fps Intel doesn't make a world of difference out side of spreadsheets.

A 4770k might be faster than a 8350 but it also comes at a $120 higher price tag. Even a 4670k is about $40 more on newegg and my local frys. Let alone another $30 price increase for the equivalent quality and feature wise motherboard.

All that extra performance from Intel you're paying for. By the time you'll need that extra performance it'll be the time your entire system will be out of date. It will be out of date at the same time the AMD system will be. Up till then the AMD system will be keeping up with Intel and lasting just as long.

The 9xxx series are geared for the diehard AMD fans much like the $600 - $1000 Intel processors are for diehard Intel fans.
Edited by orlfman - 3/2/14 at 8:38am
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post #84 of 1593
Also I wouldn't fancy spending the same amount on an Intel board every couple of years... that's a lot of money.
post #85 of 1593
I wonder what would happen if we compared an 8 core Intel vs. These 8 core AMD's.

But then again the 4770K vs. the FX9590 is a draw..

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html

But the benchmarks isn't exactly trusted by people in this thread.
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post #86 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

snip

If the CPUs have the same amount of overall processing power, they're both handling 1060 threads created by windows and one has 4 cores and one has 8 you are not going to see any difference that's noticeable by any human being.

The fact that even you say that the issue has been only really discussed in the 8300 club should tell you that there's something not quite right with the theory.

It's really a non issue, especially when you can be sure that for every guy claiming to have a faster "every day" experience on an AMD system there are many more who claim the same about intel systems.

So until there's proof.... The difference is about as real as the flying hippo I just saw near Saturn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

snip

The FXs and i7s aren't in the same price range no. However the comparison was more clear there.

However we could just as well use an i5. A modern one, I want to point out. i5 being a compromise compared to FX might have been true with SB vs. PD, but with haswell i5s out it isn't anymore. SB i5 might have been clearly behind FX in multithreaded but Haswell isn't.

Again, about consistency. A haswell i5 is very close to an 8350 in multithreaded applications. (overall, I'm sure that there are a couple of exceptions as with everything but I'm looking for the big picture here)

However that same FX is nowhere near the i5 in single thread (or similar, uses 2 cores etc.) applications.

So again by going with the intel part you're getting much closer to the "best of both worlds" situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post

placebo talk snip

I could also be feeling a placebo, but that's only assuming that I can't notice the differences the benchmarks are showing. Yes it's possible in theory I guess but at least I know that the differences I talk about are actually there.

The problem with your user experience is that it doesn't have any proof to back it up. I'm quite sure that it's important to yourself and I'm also sure that you do believe that you are experiencing what you say you are. However since other people aren't you the argument somewhat flies out of the window. Especially when there's proof to suggest the completely opposite is actually true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman 
I consider what my customers do with their machines before making a recommendation. At the present time I feel there are very few situations where they are better off spending more money for the 4670K vs the FX-8320 or 8350. The 8 core is in a much better position for the future than the 4 core, history seems to agree with me.

If you can utilize all cores 100% without wasting any resources (pretty much impossible) it doesn't matter how many cores you have.

There's no point in making a 4 cores vs. 8 cores argument out of this when the 4 cores are much, much better performing than the 8 cores are.

So in the end you're opting to choose the 8-core design with maybe 15% better overall computing power (over an i5) however for most applications it's very hard to utilize and will never be fully utilized.
Quote:
Originally Posted by orlfman View Post

snip

Since you seemed to focus on games I'll do the same.

MMOs, RTS games, emulation, even some shooters and everything that doesn't have good multithreading in general is going to play much better on intel platforms.

And no, those games aren't always easy to run. Play SC2? Would you like a minimum of 30fps on intel or 15fps on AMD? That's a very noticeable difference.
Quote:
The 9xxx series are geared for the diehard AMD fans much like the $600 - $1000 Intel processors are for diehard Intel fans.

9xxx are for AMD enthusiasts.

$500-$1000 intel CPUs are for people who want to have the fastest thing out there and also for intel enthusiasts.

There's a clear difference between the two. And I actually own a 9xxx series CPU.
 
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post #87 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by orlfman View Post


The one thing that annoys me the most in "AMD vs Intel" debates is that yes Intel might be faster in single thread performance but that doesn't equal to AMD being "slow." There isn't a game that a 8320/8350 can't handle that Intel can.

Intel might bench higher numbers. That doesn't imply that AMD can't run games at max setttings. AMD CPUs easily can. Those higher numbers don't relate to actually worth while noticeable difference. 150fps AMD vs 170fps Intel or 60fps AMD vs 77fps Intel doesn't make a world of difference out side of spreadsheets.

A 4770k might be faster than a 8350 but it also comes at a $120 higher price tag. Even a 4670k is about $40 more on newegg and my local frys. Let alone another $30 price increase for the equivalent quality and feature wise motherboard.

All that extra performance from Intel you're paying for. By the time you'll need that extra performance it'll be the time your entire system will be out of date. It will be out of date at the same time the AMD system will be. Up till then the AMD system will be keeping up with Intel and lasting just as long.

The 9xxx series are geared for the diehard AMD fans much like the $600 - $1000 Intel processors are for diehard Intel fans.

 

I don't think anyone in this thread is saying that AMD is slow. They are nimble CPUs. I think the better argument is that which is a better value proposition. But then again, that comes down to the user's needs. I occasionally do video encoding for projects for friends and family in the background, while doing my programming work in the foreground (comp-engy student). Not to mention compilers tend to be single thread only because it must compile the data sequentially. For my work, Intel was the better value proposition overall. And for games that I do play, Intel offered the smoother experience and better value proposition. Does that mean my usage equates to someone else's? Nope. An FX-8350 (or other equivalent) might be better for someone else.

 

However, the point Alatar was trying to make, is that even though people might have better value of one chip over the other, an Intel CPU generally provides better value than the AMD equivalent. Not to say that there aren't outliers on either side....because there are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo01 View Post

Also I wouldn't fancy spending the same amount on an Intel board every couple of years... that's a lot of money.

 

Almost every single time you upgrade your CPU, the user tends to upgrade their motherboard. You upgrade your motherboard on Intel because of feature-set and what generation of processor you use. On AMD's side, you upgrade your motherboard because of feature-set, and required power delivery.

 

Its essentially the same on both sides. Its a moot argument to state that one costs more than the other because of spending money on motherboards. Because chances are, you'll be doing it anyway, regardless of which company's CPUs you use.


Edited by Kinaesthetic - 3/2/14 at 9:34am
post #88 of 1593
I couldnt tell any real difference in windows 7 performance and I had AMD quad core Phenom 840 to fx6300@ 5ghz to 4670k at 4.7ghz. With my Sandisk extreme SSD and its 552mb sec read speed each one of those cpu s makes win7 run as fast as win7 can.

Matter er of fact my Wife has a dell laptop that has a sandy bridge I3 and when I put the same SSD in it, It made windows just as fast. I do believe any difference in over all feel is pure placebo. We are way past what can max the speed of opening programs and loading web pages when you pair the fx4300 or I3 with a SSD.

I mean I guess if your trying a million things at one time but even then it literally took me doing ridiculous amounts of tasks and throw in prime95 to get my old 840 to freeze up.
Edited by Wirerat - 3/2/14 at 9:32am
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post #89 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

The FXs and i7s aren't in the same price range no. However the comparison was more clear there.

However we could just as well use an i5. A modern one, I want to point out. i5 being a compromise compared to FX might have been true with SB vs. PD, but with haswell i5s out it isn't anymore. SB i5 might have been clearly behind FX in multithreaded but Haswell isn't.

Again, about consistency. A haswell i5 is very close to an 8350 in multithreaded applications. (overall, I'm sure that there are a couple of exceptions as with everything but I'm looking for the big picture here)

However that same FX is nowhere near the i5 in single thread (or similar, uses 2 cores etc.) applications.

So again by going with the intel part you're getting much closer to the "best of both worlds" situation.

But that's just it, the lowest end of low haswell i5's which are lower clocked and not unlocked are still $30 more than a 8320 which we all know can reach 8350 speeds on stock cooling without a problem.

Though this is a general bench, it goes to show a 4670k is definitely better then the SB parts of it's day (multithreading being the focus here), there are still plenty of times the 8350 will take it without a problem.

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/697?vs=837

So again, keeping in mind the 4670k is as of this post $240 on amazon vs a $180 fx-8350 on amazon, thats still $60 in favor of AMD. And as stressed a million times before, an 8320 can easily just be moved to a 8350 on stock cooling for $150 so almost a $100 difference for the unlocked i5 and an unlocked 8 core.
Edited by SoloCamo - 3/2/14 at 9:34am
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post #90 of 1593
And if you didn't spend on Mobo you'd end up like LGA 2011 which most users are beginning to find outdated.

So which is better?
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