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AMD No longer a viable option for mid-high end? - Page 84  

post #831 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

The difference between a PhII X3 or x4 and the FX 6300 and 8XXX is about double, and in many cases, slightly less than double. I wouldn't exactly call that night and day since FX cores actually perform worse on their own.......even with double the cores. Let's keep in mind, Phenom II came out in ~2009. It's 2014. That's well over 5 years......just to get a 100% increase in performance (and that's primarily from more cores)......with no signs of anything beyond quad core APU's in the future....unless of course, you get an Opteron and socket G34.

The problem with FX isn't even just the shared cache, it's virtually everything......very small performance margins core per core over PhII, shared scheduler, shared FPU, The only actual benefit FX mostly provides is the lower power draw per core, but even then AMD's power draw is obviously still pretty high especially when compared to Intel.

The truth is, FX is primarily designed around cheap production costs (which is why they did it in 32nm and went with the module design). Sure you get more performance than previous AMD generations, but clearly the main focus of the design was to make production costs cheaper so AMD could profit more. they don't exactly pass the saving on to you, they just make the product cheaper to produce so they can take a larger cut.
Boy you just keep letting that train run right over you. Your arguments are so... well pathetisad. Phenom IPC is higher when, and this is why your argument is so terrible, both the Phenom and FX are equally clocked. But being the FX Clocks a lot higher any IPC advantage the phenom had is long gone.

But my favorite part is this:
Quote:
The truth is, FX is primarily designed around cheap production costs (which is why they did it in 32nm and went with the module design). Sure you get more performance than previous AMD generations, but clearly the main focus of the design was to make production costs cheaper so AMD could profit more. they don't exactly pass the saving on to you, they just make the product cheaper to produce so they can take a larger cut

Being we don't have verifiable proof of the why, Best we have is the speculation and what you gave is not one of the agreed reasons. Most say it is because AMD felt the reliance on the FPU was beginning to become secondary with the new instruction sets. But that goes hand in hand with my theory that they knew this HSA configuration was the direction they were headed. Keep in mind these things are generally laid out years in advance. It was a foundation for the design they now use in Kaveri. I don't see any company intentionally crippling themselves and remaining that way as you would love for all to believe.
post #832 of 1593
So no one wants to simply bench it out and compare results?
    
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post #833 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

The truth is, FX is primarily designed around cheap production costs (which is why they did it in 32nm and went with the module design). Sure you get more performance than previous AMD generations, but clearly the main focus of the design was to make production costs cheaper so AMD could profit more. they don't exactly pass the saving on to you, they just make the product cheaper to produce so they can take a larger cut.

The truth is that the 32nm, 315 mm^2 Vishera (e.g. FX-8320) costs more to make compared to Intel's 22nm, 160 mm^2 Ivy Bridge (e.g. 3770K), or Intel's 177mm^2 Haswell (e.g. 4770K), and yet AMD can't charge as much for them because they are slower than Intel's products.

Lose-lose situation for AMD. Makes me a little sad when I think back to the days of my first AMD Athlon rig, back in the days when AMD could actually compete with Intel, lol.
Edited by 996gt2 - 3/25/14 at 4:55pm
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post #834 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by 996gt2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

The truth is, FX is primarily designed around cheap production costs (which is why they did it in 32nm and went with the module design). Sure you get more performance than previous AMD generations, but clearly the main focus of the design was to make production costs cheaper so AMD could profit more. they don't exactly pass the saving on to you, they just make the product cheaper to produce so they can take a larger cut.

The truth is that the 32nm, 315 mm^2 Vishera (e.g. FX-8320) costs more to make compared to Intel's 22nm, 160 mm^2 Ivy Bridge (e.g. 3770K), or Intel's 177mm^2 Haswell (e.g. 4770K), and yet AMD can't charge as much for them because they are slower than Intel's products.

Lose-lose situation for AMD. Makes me a little sad when I think back to the days of my first AMD Athlon rig, back in the days when AMD could actually compete with Intel, lol.

Die size between processes is not comparable in regards to price.

Do you think a 200mm^2 45nm chip would cost the same as a 20nm TSMC chip that was 200mm^2?

For all we know, 32nm GloFo SOI is half the price of 22nm MUH 3d!!!!
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post #835 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

http://www.zdnet.com/nvidia-announces-next-generation-gpu-codenamed-pascal-7000027704/

well would you look at that.

What is the implication? AMD's APU design is already made completely irrelevant for anything beyond the lowest of the low end in GPU performance.

Yeah, but you know what? That's coming after a Maxwell Refresh. Maxwell refresh isn't due until late this year. Meaning we won't see Pascal until at least late 2015. Nvndia always gets up and starts talking about their future technology earlier than anyone else. Then, they make these ridiculous claims comparing the new thing to what is out already, and then imply that their new thing will be competing with the old ones. Or in cases of Tegra, they release a few months earlier than the competition, compare Tegra to the old chips from the competitor, wave their hands around talking about how amazing it is compared to year old hardware, and then competitors release updates which destroy Tegra and Tegra ends up not shipping in any serious devices.

As for NVLink, Nvidia is in the worst position out of Intel, AMD, and Nvidia to release a technology like this.

You are all right, PCIe is a massive hurdle for HSA and other shared memory technologies. It doesn't help that PCIe uses something similar to bits/second to measure speed while most of the other system is measured in bytes/second. Which means PCIe 4.0 is still only going to have 32GB/s of bandwidth. That sounds great compared to what we have, but by the time we see PCIe 4, we'll have DDR4. DDR4 is looking at 25GB/s per channel. Which means high end quad channel platforms will have 100GB/s bandwidth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_device_bandwidths

Note where HyperTransport stands. I think AMD is in the best position to replace PCIe with something far better. They did at one point have a HyperTransport Slot which was 100% pin compatible with PCIe. NVLink, as mentioned earlier, has no potential. At most it will end up a niche item in Power servers, which is far out of reach of probably anyone here. ANd if you do go that route, you can't really use Windows or Windows applications, so you end up with a Linux desktop best case scenario.
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post #836 of 1593
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fear of Oneself View Post

I suppose, but there isn't really an alternative. I mean...Intel's chips could be a thousand times faster, but money's money. Saving $200 between a CPU and motherboard alone can allow you to pump a little extra into a GPU, or hang out with friends for a couple nights. Or, you simply don't use your PC enough to justify that extra coin, or, you simply can't afford it.

Based on your argument about per core performance being worse....May as well keep all 8 cores enabled then...?

EDIT: If you find an Intel CPU + Motherboard + Apogee GTZ bracket combination for <$300 after taxes and shipping (at regular price outside of the US) that performs as well as this http://valid.canardpc.com/s6pjt6

Then by all means, I'll jump on the AMD hate train too

You don't need water cooling for an Intel CPU, even to overclock it decently, and I already do have an answer to that for under ~$300 that is better than the 8350 for an intel MB/CPU.



Xeon 1230v3:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116906

$249. Includes AVX instructions and such

$229 for the 1230v2 that doesn't include these instruactions

from there, it's pretty simple to find a decent enough motherboard from $50-70, keeping you under the $300 threshold.

both of these processors are what.....at least 30% faster than the 8350 at stock clocks? while also using almost half the wattage.

Welcome aboard the hate train, tickets please.
Edited by AMDATI - 3/25/14 at 7:36pm
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post #837 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

You don't need water cooling for an Intel CPU, even to overclock it decently, and I already do have an answer to that for under ~$300 that is better than the 8350 for an intel MB/CPU.



Xeon 1230v3:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116906

$249. Includes AVX instructions and such

$229 for the 1230v2 that doesn't include these instruactions

from there, it's pretty simple to find a decent enough motherboard from $50-70, keeping you under the $300 threshold.

both of these processors are what.....at least 30% faster than the 8350 at stock clocks? while also using almost half the wattage.

Welcome aboard the hate train, tickets please.

....So the first example you gave, is $301 CAD + tax which comes to $340 before shipping.
Unless it comes with a motherboard that is $-50, I'm still in the lead with AMD.

And I don't need to water cool AMD, I just already had a loop from my PhII, so may as well use it as everything is the same.
I feel like you didn't even read my post rolleyes.gif
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post #838 of 1593
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

Yeah, but you know what? That's coming after a Maxwell Refresh. Maxwell refresh isn't due until late this year. Meaning we won't see Pascal until at least late 2015. Nvndia always gets up and starts talking about their future technology earlier than anyone else. Then, they make these ridiculous claims comparing the new thing to what is out already, and then imply that their new thing will be competing with the old ones. Or in cases of Tegra, they release a few months earlier than the competition, compare Tegra to the old chips from the competitor, wave their hands around talking about how amazing it is compared to year old hardware, and then competitors release updates which destroy Tegra and Tegra ends up not shipping in any serious devices.

As for NVLink, Nvidia is in the worst position out of Intel, AMD, and Nvidia to release a technology like this.

You are all right, PCIe is a massive hurdle for HSA and other shared memory technologies. It doesn't help that PCIe uses something similar to bits/second to measure speed while most of the other system is measured in bytes/second. Which means PCIe 4.0 is still only going to have 32GB/s of bandwidth. That sounds great compared to what we have, but by the time we see PCIe 4, we'll have DDR4. DDR4 is looking at 25GB/s per channel. Which means high end quad channel platforms will have 100GB/s bandwidth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_device_bandwidths

Note where HyperTransport stands. I think AMD is in the best position to replace PCIe with something far better. They did at one point have a HyperTransport Slot which was 100% pin compatible with PCIe. NVLink, as mentioned earlier, has no potential. At most it will end up a niche item in Power servers, which is far out of reach of probably anyone here. ANd if you do go that route, you can't really use Windows or Windows applications, so you end up with a Linux desktop best case scenario.

How cost effective do you think 100GB/s quad channel DDR4 will be? By the time all is said and done, you'll most likely end up paying more than you would have on a standalone GPU, with less performance overall to boot. let's also keep in mind that the bandwidth is still effectively halved as well, since if both the GPU and CPU are accessing the memory at the same time, regardless of if it's unified, that's going to eat into memory bandwidth.

and PCI-3 is still quite capable of providing enough bandwidth for even the highest end cards, which means PCI-3 isn't really a limiting factor to extreme performance.

HSA is strictly a performance improvement over previous APU system....nothing more. It cannot be compared to standalone GPU's at all, nor reasoned as some type of performance increase over standalone GPU's.

To put it simply, APU's, even for the next 5 years or more, will be nowhere near competing with standalone cards in both price and performance.
Edited by AMDATI - 3/25/14 at 7:49pm
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post #839 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

How cost effective do you think 100GB/s quad channel DDR4 will be? By the time all is said and done, you'll most likely end up paying more than you would have on a standalone GPU, with less performance overall to boot. let's also keep in mind that the bandwidth is still effectively halved as well, since if both the GPU and CPU are accessing the memory at the same time, regardless of if it's unified, that's going to eat into memory bandwidth.

CPU doesn't usually use that much bandwidth in the first place - that's why you need somewhat niche applications to benefit from say high performing 2400 RAM vs 1600, and why it's not a big deal that Intel's dual channel ddr3 memory controller on Haswell has like 1.5x the bandwidth with the same memory as Kaveri, for cpu related tasks

If 20GB/s isn't holding back performance on cpu unless in niche applications, then if you have 100, GPU is free to fly and use most of it
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post #840 of 1593
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fear of Oneself View Post

....So the first example you gave, is $301 CAD + tax which comes to $340 before shipping.
Unless it comes with a motherboard that is $-50, I'm still in the lead with AMD.

And I don't need to water cool AMD, I just already had a loop from my PhII, so may as well use it as everything is the same.
I feel like you didn't even read my post rolleyes.gif

And I feel like you're just trying to shrug it off. I don't include taxes, because I don't get taxed by newegg......and a lot of people don't. so we're looking at $300 max, nothing more, and possibly even less than $300. you can complain about a $39 mobo all you want, but if the performance is there over the 8350, it cannot be ignored. and I even allowed for a $50-$70 mobo in that $300 budget, so you can't exactly complain.

I find it funny how when you want to boast AMD, you leave out taxes completely when citing costs. But then when you're trying to make a point, it's somehow relevant. The bias is clear to see and deafening.
Edited by AMDATI - 3/25/14 at 7:54pm
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