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AMD No longer a viable option for mid-high end? - Page 85  

post #841 of 1593
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

CPU doesn't usually use that much bandwidth in the first place - that's why you need somewhat niche applications to benefit from say high performing 2400 RAM vs 1600, and why it's not a big deal that Intel's dual channel ddr3 memory controller on Haswell has like 1.5x the bandwidth with the same memory as Kaveri, for cpu related tasks

If 20GB/s isn't holding back performance on cpu unless in niche applications, then if you have 100, GPU is free to fly and use most of it

No but if the CPU and GPU is using unified memory, obviously that's going to eat into bandwidth, which means less bandwidth for an already bandwidth starved GPU. Geez, you people are trying REALLY hard to ignore the facts and twist everything, squirming to find some way to be right when you're soooooo clearly wrong.
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post #842 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

And I feel like you're just trying to shrug it off. I don't include taxes, because I don't get taxed by newegg......and a lot of people don't. so we're looking at $300 max, nothing more, and possibly even less than $300. you can complain about a $39 mobo all you want, but if the performance is there over the 8350, it cannot be ignored.

I find it funny how when you want to boast AMD, you leave out taxes completely when citing costs.

Understand that not everyone lives in the United States.
All I'm saying is, you're fast to talk down about something when you really don't have a firm understanding of what other people do on their PC, and where they live. Making blanket statements, and recommending CPU's that cost 75% more than a competing chip, really makes no sense.
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post #843 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

No but if the CPU and GPU is using unified memory, obviously that's going to eat into bandwidth, which means less bandwidth for an already bandwidth starved GPU. Geez, you people are trying REALLY hard to ignore the facts and twist everything, squirming to find some way to be right when you're soooooo clearly wrong.

Have you not noticed me saying a lot of the same thing as you recently? tongue.gif
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post #844 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fear of Oneself View Post

Understand that not everyone lives in the United States.
All I'm saying is, you're fast to talk down about something when you really don't have a firm understanding of what other people do on their PC, and where they live. Making blanket statements, and recommending CPU's that cost 75% more than a competing chip, really makes no sense.

You may as well let it die, his mind is made up and no amount of proof will change his bias anyway.

There are others in this thread that make real arguments and do have a reasonable understanding, best to save your brain power for when they post.
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post #845 of 1593
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Have you not noticed me saying a lot of the same thing as you recently? tongue.gif

I can't really be expected to keep track of who says what in an 80 page thread, I just respond to what is said. You were trying to make it out like because the CPU needs less bandwidth, that it wouldn't cut into a 100GB/s memory bus......but the problem is, it would. The CPU's not going to just use a limited amount of that, otherwise you'd be crippled anytime you wanted to modify shared memory by the CPU....bringing you back to square 1, since some have cited the PCI-E being a performance bottleneck because of all the copying back and forth between memory......but if your CPU has limited access to unified memory bandwidth, then you're back to square 1.

And again, 100GB/s DDR4 isn't exactly going to be anywhere near cost effective when it comes to APU's. You'd still be better off with a standalone GPU, both in price and performance. Even 100GB/s is barely mid range graphics card bandwidth....and keep in mind, that's for non shared VRAM.
Edited by AMDATI - 3/25/14 at 8:15pm
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post #846 of 1593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

You may as well let it die, his mind is made up and no amount of proof will change his bias anyway.

There are others in this thread that make real arguments and do have a reasonable understanding, best to save your brain power for when they post.


Or more accurately, other people will make up an excuse to make their point seem more valid than it actually is. Or people try to use things only valid to them, as being some type of benchmark point. Well I'm the OP, so I guess the benchmark point defaults to the USA.
Edited by AMDATI - 3/25/14 at 8:19pm
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post #847 of 1593
I chuckled when I read that NVLink was more efficient than Pci-Express. I recall reading in Tom's website that Pci-Express consumption was higher than AGP aperture. redface.gif
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post #848 of 1593
Whatever anybody says here doesn't change the fact the HSA performs many times better while using many times less power on an APU and this has already been demonstrated by AMD, many saw it and many don't want to see it because they don't want to believe in HSA's potential and I don't think someone's personal beliefs affect the performance of a product, if that is true then I would request you to believe that FX-8350 performs better than 4960X tongue.gif

Leave the philosophy aside, I said many posts ago that if someone could compare performance of XOP and FMA4 to AVX then we would know whether AMD has good implementations on their exclusive ISA's.
    
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post #849 of 1593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imran27 View Post

Whatever anybody says here doesn't change the fact the HSA performs many times better while using many times less power on an APU and this has already been demonstrated by AMD, many saw it and many don't want to see it because they don't want to believe in HSA's potential and I don't think someone's personal beliefs affect the performance of a product, if that is true then I would request you to believe that FX-8350 performs better than 4960X tongue.gif

Leave the philosophy aside, I said many posts ago that if someone could compare performance of XOP and FMA4 to AVX then we would know whether AMD has good implementations on their exclusive ISA's.


Many times better.....ONLY when compared to previous APU's. It really can't get all that much better either, since SYSRAM bandwidth limitations already cripple HSA APU's. They've hit a wall until they add onboard high bandwidth RAM, and that comes with its own logistical problems, meaning it's not happening anytime soon.

Let's see, $180 for the top AMD APU, plus $80 more for 8GB of PC2400 or so RAM (which is still limited by bandwidth)....for barely 30fps and most likely without AA. For ~$260, I could get an FX 6300 ($120) and a 750ti ($150) and have better performance both on the GPU and CPU. And keep in mind, the 750ti level of performance can be had for less in other videocards, since many videocards are just rehashes of older videocards with near the same performance. Some things may be more expensive just because they are newer. Or I could just get an independent quad core comparable to the APU, with a standalone videocard, and save a few bucks or get a better performing videocard. Conclusion: Not cost effective compared to traditional systems.

And then there's the fact that once you go FM2.....you're stuck in FM2 until you buy a new board. Even the people who got FM2 boards were screwed when FM2+ became a requirement for Kaveri. FM2 lasted what....one generation? And I don't really see much of an upgrade future in FM2+ either.

The same thing happened with AM3 and AM3+, but in their defense at least these sockets had a bit more longevity and upgrade paths.

If there's an FM3, one would hope they skip and release FM3+ from the get go instead. Or better yet, how about a universal socket generation of chips/motherboards.
Edited by AMDATI - 3/25/14 at 11:08pm
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post #850 of 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMDATI View Post

Many times better.....ONLY when compared to previous APU's. It really can't get all that much better either, since SYSRAM bandwidth limitations already cripple HSA APU's. They've hit a wall until they add onboard high bandwidth RAM, and that comes with its own logistical problems, meaning it's not happening anytime soon.

Let's see, $180 for the top AMD APU, plus $80 more for 8GB of PC2400 or so RAM (which is still limited by bandwidth)....for barely 30fps and most likely without AA. For $260, I could get an FX 6300 ($120) and a 750ti ($150) and have better performance both on the GPU and CPU. And keep in mind, the 750ti level of performance can be had for less in other videocards, since many videocards are just rehashes of older videocards with near the same performance. Some things may be more expensive just because they are newer.

And then there's the fact that once you go FM2.....you're stuck in FM2 until you buy a new board. Even the people who got FM2 boards were screwed when FM2+ became a requirement for Kaveri. FM2 lasted what....one generation? And I don't really see much of an upgrade future in FM2+ either.

You're complete mixing things up, you're talking about the problems which will be faced when we use hUMA for gaming on an iGPU of an APU, HSA is not targeted for gaming, it uses hUMA for efficient execution of data-parallel computations on an iGPU, keyword computation. A massive bandwidth is not required for most compute tasks, though higher bandwidth scales very well with performance of iGPU compute but still, on a standard 2133 MHz CL9/CL10 RAM the computation on an APU using HSA will be many times faster compared to it's Intel counterpart.

You'll need a massive bandwidth only for gaming and some other small bunch of applications.

As for the system bandwidth's bottleneck, ye it's true that iGPU is greatly bottle-necked by the system memory bandwidth but that may just be solved by adding DDR4 support with quad-channel memory on high-end APU's in future, it really isn't that hard for AMD, remember they did the same thing on Hawaii GPU (512-bit memory at low speeds still gives massive BW)
    
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