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Quick Question: How Many D5 Pumps Do I Need?

3K views 49 replies 11 participants last post by  JayJayvld 
#1 ·
I'm just going to keep renaming this thread to get threw all of my questions!! Seems like a better way to go. See the latest post for the latest questions. First up:

I googled away all day and found little on this subject:

I currently have 5x120mm Gentle Typhoon AP-15 fans. My build calls for 20x120mm fans or a 5x120mm fan + 12x140mm fan combo. This count provisions one extra of each fan type in case of a fan failure.

I've long held that the GT AP-15 fans are unsurpassed in performance and durability. Yet I have also long wanted a fan equal to the GT AP-15 in those respects with a better looking design (IE not grey) and LEDs. Everyone has nice things to say about the Phanteks PH-F140SP LED with its blue LEDs, white fan blades, and great performance. The Phanteks fans also come with black cables and a nice black extension cord. But are they better than the GT AP-15s in performance and durability? Its also 120mm vs 140mm. If silence (run by a fan controller) and great rad performance are my goals which is the better fan? I should also note that the GT AP-15s are almost twice as expensive. To purchase enough GT AP-15 fans to complete my build will run $315 delivered at FrozenCPU (15 more GT AP-15 fans). To do the same with the Phanteks fans will run only $175 delivered at Phanteks direct (12 Phanteks fans - less are needed to fill the case due to the 140mm size).

Any thoughts? Or other fans to consider?

Product Links:

Phanteks:

http://www.phanteksusa.com/products/phanteks-ph-f140sp_led

GTs:

http://www.frozencpu.com/products/10323/fan-674/Scythe_Gentle_Typhoon_120mm_x_25mm_Fan_-_1850_RPM_D1225C12B5AP-15_Hot_Item_.html
 
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#3 ·
I get that but I do have to pick one path or the other nonetheless. Unless I find other worthy fans to chose from. My Case Labs Merlin SM8 case can do both fan sizes no problem. With the 140mm option I do have to spend $20 to get another drop in mount however. The other fan mount adapters I have not purchased as of yet so no loss there. Of course the Black Ice SR-1 Rad configuration changes (I'm getting four rads either way):

120mm Fan Rads: 360, 480, 480, 480

vs

140mm Fan Rads: 280, 420, 420, 420

I wonder which actually has more rad space between the two. I would guess the 140mm Fan Rads by a smidgen.
 
#8 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Zuko View Post

While I don't mind spending money to get nicer things for my PC, if all things are equal, I don't mind saving money either. that's the scenario the Phantek fan pricing puts me in.
If it goes with your scheme, you're okay with the price, and can't find anything better then just go for it. It's one of my favouriteIt's my favourite 14cm besides the Vipers... Cuz they're yellow.
tongue.gif
It's good noise to performance and price to performance. Doo ett
 
#10 ·
I have PH-F140XPs and AP15s w/ 140mm adapters in my system. The XPs should be the same just w/ PWM. I can't comment on performance. But in terms of noise the GTs are superior. Both of my F140XPs growl. If I slow the GTs to 1200 to match the F140XPs the GTs have a better noise profile.
 
#12 ·
Rather simple thing ... well not so much anymore as last week the LED Phanteks fans were $17 w/ a $10 rebate on newegg. This week the non-LED ones are $10 after $5 rebate.

It's a given that the adapters will add to the noise profile so this way you would be able to put a 140 on a 140 and a 120 on a 120 both non PWM. and compare yaself..... PWM fans of course can have some added noise as well but reviews indicate it's not bad at all on teh Phnateks XP. I'd offer to buy it off ya if ya didn't like it but as shipping is more than the fan ....
smile.gif


As for the rad surface area....

140s in your example are 215,600 sq.mm.
120s in your example are 216,000 sq.mm.

..... but ya get some of that back (theoretically) as less dead area behind the fan motor on the 140s as ya have 8 less fans.

If cost is a consideration.....

140m rads = 3 * $85 + $66 = $321 + $175 for fans = $496
120m rads = 3 * $105 + $80 = $395 + $315 = $710

So it's a $214 decision (43% More)

Other things to consider.....

Are we talking 1850 rpm versus 1200 rpm.....? That is going to be what as far as controlled range ?

I can confirm 250 - 1277 rpm on Phanteks Non PWM
Maybe lowfat can chime in on the APs range

Also with 15 versus 12 fans soundwise .... if we assume that both fans have a base sound of 24BA.

15 Fans would have a Sound Pressure Level (dB) : 47.5
12 Fans would have a Sound Pressure Level (dB) : 45.6

So the 120s would have to be 1.9 dBA quieter from the getgo to match the sound with all running

Another way to put it ....

With one fan at 24.0 dBA, 15 Fans would have a Sound Pressure Level (dB) : 47.5
With one fan at 25.9 dBA, 12 Fans would have a Sound Pressure Level (dB) : 47.5

Can do the math yaself here

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/adding-decibel-d_63.html

Also, the Phanteks PCBs should be out by end of month meaning ya can take ya CPU_OPT header to a 5 way PWM cable splitter..... run each of those to a Phanteks Fan PCB and have PWM control over every one of ya non-PW 3-pin rad (up to 55) fans.

Splitter => PCB 1 => 6 or 8 rad fans on 420/480
Splitter => PCB 2 => 6 or 8 rad fans on 420/480
Splitter => PCB 3 => 6 or 8 rad fans on 420/480
Splitter => PCB 4 => 4 or 6 rad fans on 280/360
Splitter => PCB 5 => up to 11 case fans

You can also use up to 8 Phanteks fans on the PCBs when connected to a voltage control MoBo header.
 
#13 ·
I suppose the 1850rpm would not really be used much, but the GTs scale well. More like I would be using a fan controller like the Aquaero 6 XT. But the extra RPM would be there if I wanted it for any reason. But no I don't expect to need it often. I was going for PWM but I think its just not worth it as I want the Aquaero anyway for the water stuff. The Aquero does not need PWM. More of a gut reaction from all the PWM stuff I've read. It works I'm sure but just not sure it works better. I don't read everyone climbing over each other to go PWM. Everyone seems to want non PWM and an Aquaero. The rest seems impossible to comment on without actual testing with the actual parts.
 
#14 ·
Alright, I'm ordering up the GT fans.

I'm just going to keep renaming this thread to get threw all of my questions!! Seems like a better way to go. Next up:

How many D5 pumps should I get? My plan calls for two Aqua Computer Aquabus D5 Pumps already. One for the new EK D5 Bay Res and one for the Aquilis with the Aquilis D5 Top. Note that I want the reservoirs for eye candy just as much as for the pumps. I also want a bit of overkill for that extreme build factor but not stupid overkill. Is two going to do it or should I do three or four D5 pumps?

My build calls for 4 rads (single 360, 3 x 480), two reservoirs, about 3-5 waterblocks, artistic bent acrylic hardlines, so I want some pump power. I was going to do MCP35X or MCP50X pumps but decided to go with D5 pumps after all based on endurance, my goals for silent first watercooling, no heat, and the fact that the D5 is needed for that EK D5 Bay Res. I'm willing to make up for the D5's usual weaknesses with more D5 pumps if need be. Here is my build plan:

 
#15 ·
Have you bought the D5 yet? If not... I'd go with MCP35x2.

Want overkill? Do 5 D5's in series
smile.gif
 
#16 ·
I have not purchased yet. I was thinking 3 D5 pumps should be plenty. With Aquacomputer rads I can mount a 360 with a D5 up top, then do the other 360 in the front, and the dual 480's in the basement. Put the second D5 in the EK D5 res, and the third in the Aqualis res. I may change my mind on the DDC pumps but the D5 mounting options are superior with the EK res and the Aquacomputer stuff. The MCP35X2 was the first one I was going for back in the day but I've warmed up to the D5 series from reading more Vs posts on the subject. I suppose I could always mix both styles of pumps in there and see what I like for myself.

Edit: I just read here

http://www.xtremerigs.net/2013/08/09/aquacomputer-d5-top/

that the Aqua Computer D5 top performance needs work. I may have buy the stand alone version of the Aqualis. And rethink a few details of my loop.

Edit: Stren's website FTW:

"It tell us a few things:

- The EK dual top is almost identical in performance to the mathematical construct of two EK single tops. This means that this dual top is about as perfect a performance as you could get.

- The Bitspower dual top performs terribly, far worse than just using the two default Laing tops

- The flow rates are just simply huge because we are using two D5 strongs. Unless you have a ridiculous loop there is no need to run two D5 strongs and you'd be far better off with two D5 Varios at setting 3-4 which would put out numbers much more like the D5 strong at minimum i.e. 1.6GPM on a "medium" loop but without very much noise at all!

Summary

Initially I assumed there would be some compromise for choosing a compact dual top, and there is if you choose the Bitspower top. However the EK is amazing and there are no compromises at all. It has all the performance and features you could want and there is absolutely nothing I can criticize it for."

http://www.xtremerigs.net/2014/01/23/ek-dual-d5-top/2/

Just the info I needed.
 
#17 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironsmack View Post

Have you bought the D5 yet? If not... I'd go with MCP35x2.

Want overkill? Do 5 D5's in series
smile.gif
I'll echo the 35x2 with the heatsink and fan.

Note ya can do the same fan control (PWM Feed to 3 pin fans) with the Phanteks Fan PCB (up to 11 fans per PCB) for a lot less money (I'm guessing $20) .... they go on sale w/o ya having to buy the case this month.

Plus.... I think ya much better off decoupling the pump and res....I'd avoid the bay res.

The difference between the D5's is that with the D5s it's water cooled so their heat is thrown into the loop..... with the 35X2, it's handled mostly by the HS.
 
#18 ·
Just ordered 22 GP AP-14s for $308 delivered (USA). That's enough for my current build log project plus 3 extras in case of any failures. I chose the AP-14s over the AP-15s after living with the AP-15s for a while without a fan controller. I find AP-15s to be mostly quiet but a bit louder than I'd want for movies. With all the rads I am planing on I'll never run Ap-15s at full speed. Plus the AP-14s are rated for nearly double the lifespan and they undervolt a bit smoother from what I can read. Not to mention I was able to buy 22 AP-14s for the current price of 15 GT AP-15s. So I should be good on fans for quite a while plus I still have 5 of the AP-15s left.

If EK makes a bay res without the D5 hole I'll buy it. Perhaps there is a way to plug it up without the pump. But the res does have anti vibration built in and so does my sm8 case (with the anti vibration mounts) so I think I'm good on vibration protection. And I like EK's new bay res too much to pass on it. I'm set on the D5s for now but I do change my PC plan like I change my socks.
 
#22 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Zuko View Post

Here is my build plan:

This is going to sound weird but there are just too many rads in your suggested build. You will end up re-using air from one rad into the other.
I suggest you come up with a way to have all your rads sucking air into your case, or all rads blowing air out of your case.

Here is what our water cooling guru, Martin of MML, has to say about rad airflow direction:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210 View Post

The trick with rad sizing is the installation where grill restriction, poor case air flow, and recycling of heat can easily cut performance in half or worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210 View Post

Also are both rads pushing air out of the case?
You don't want to recycle air through rads..thats a goo way to loose most of their efficiency.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210 View Post

Yeah, don't bother...doesn't work in water cooling unless you planned to run ultra high speed 4000+RPM fans in push/rad/push/rad/pull type setup.

Bottom line, you need fresh cold air entering each radiator. Recycling already warmed air is bad juju..
biggrin.gif
 
#23 ·
Also, looking at your proposed design, looks like not only you have too many rads, but they all appear to be thick rads in push or pull alone.
I think you would actually get better performance with half the raddage in push/pull. Especially if you are going with thick rads.

And for a single GPU and single CPU, a single D5 would be sufficient. More pumps just mean more heat dumped into your loop.

I know it sounds weird to suggest less rads and less pumps for improuved performance. But I think other guys here will support this, the more seasoned guys anyway.

If you really want that many rads, I suggest moving some of them out externally.

Cheers
biggrin.gif
 
#24 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Zuko View Post

Just ordered 22 GP AP-14s for $308 delivered (USA). That's enough for my current build log project plus 3 extras in case of any failures. I chose the AP-14s over the AP-15s after living with the AP-15s for a while without a fan controller. I find AP-15s to be mostly quiet but a bit louder than I'd want for movies. With all the rads I am planing on I'll never run Ap-15s at full speed. Plus the AP-14s are rated for nearly double the lifespan and they undervolt a bit smoother from what I can read. Not to mention I was able to buy 22 AP-14s for the current price of 15 GT AP-15s. So I should be good on fans for quite a while plus I still have 5 of the AP-15s left.

If EK makes a bay res without the D5 hole I'll buy it. Perhaps there is a way to plug it up without the pump. But the res does have anti vibration built in and so does my sm8 case (with the anti vibration mounts) so I think I'm good on vibration protection. And I like EK's new bay res too much to pass on it. I'm set on the D5s for now but I do change my PC plan like I change my socks.
If you are not going to mount your pump(s) on your res, there is no need to decouple the res. Unless you get that expensive dancing, shaking, vibrating coolant in there.
tongue.gif
 
#25 ·
My render does not account for airflow or true fan placement. Its drawn that way to be easier to see as its not a 3D model you can spin around. The two pedestals are isolated from the main chamber but can be open to each other. For airflow the middle pedestal sucks in the air while cooling off the hard drives and the two bottom rads exhaust opposite to each other. The bottom pedestal is also ventilated front and back for fresh air to be drawn in. The top chamber does put a 360 into a 480 but the case is huge and the total rad real estate is equally huge. The heat would have to fight its way past 15x120mm of total rad space. I honestly don't think it will matter when cooling off a single CPU, a single GPU, possibly two GPUs, and the motherboard. The rads are 55mm in a single fan configuration. IMHO, push pull isn't worth it over single fans for noise, the minor performance gain, and cost. Even excess has a limit. Or that's not where I want the excess to go
biggrin.gif
I want at least two pumps for redundancy, the third was just to use the Dual EK D5 Pump Top and to give the build a bit of excess. I will also be using several XSPC 170 Reservoirs and want to insure the loop is strong enough to push threw all of them. External rads just moves your attention away from the showcase. Not into that idea.

That said, I suppose I could cut the front bay rad and do something else artistic with the space. 3x480 will be just as excessive and would not feed into each other. While I knew that there was a performance drop, I might not of known just how much. Thanks for the info.
Quote:
Originally Posted by morencyam View Post

You could buy the model that doesn't come with a pump and make a sealing cap for it. A piece of thick plastic with a rubber gasket would probably work using the existing screw holes
Good idea. Though I might as well put a pump in there since I want three. And three shiny EK D5 pump covers
biggrin.gif
 
#26 ·
Actually I did revise the build plan for airflow, thanks for getting me to think more about it. I found a way to have my cake and eat it too with up to 14x120 rad space on two pedestals that don't recycle heat. I did this as I realized just how bad my airflow plan was. I'll post it in my build log soon.
 
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