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Push vs Push/Pull fans on Lower FPI Rads?

post #1 of 32
Thread Starter 
Wanting quiet and less area/space taken by the fans and rads.
Looking at BlackIce SR1 Low Air Flow Optimized 120mm(link) & 240mm(link)
Currently using two Noctua NF-F12 PWM fans, and would get a few more for said rads. The question is, can I get away with just a set of push fans?

Thinner rads,
Black Ice GT Stealth 120/240 X-Flow (link1) (link2)
Id even consider a single 360 rad with push/pull?

Setup:
Single CPU (115x/2011) Overclock would be kept under stock volts
2 GPU's (Will see lots of cuda rendering)

Pump/Res_combo, cpu, 120mm rad, gpu1, gpu2, 240mm rad, pump/res_combo.

Looking at a dual redundant Pump/Res_Combo with good back pressure or what ever it may be called?
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/16942/ex-res-421/XSPC_Twin_D5_Dual_525_Bay_Clear_Reservoir_-_w_Dual_MCP655_Series_Pumps_Installed.html?tl=g30c107s152

Feedback?
KS'
Edited by knightsilver - 3/3/14 at 9:13pm
post #2 of 32
Thinner low fpi rads still benefit from p/p, just not as much as thicker high fpi ones.
And if you plan on getting low speed fans, the gain of p/p is even less, but still there is a gain.
I personally prefer to go as thick as possible, using p/p and low fpi, as in Alphacool rads. If I can't fit p/p, I go down in size until I do.

I like the Alphacool full copper line best for the folliwing reasons:
- Low fpi
- Very low coolant pressure drop.
- Best performers. Below 1000 rpm, the ST30 is king.
- All copper construction, even the tubes.
- 6 ports for multiple choice, and a drain port on thicker rads, like tge UT60 and Monsta.
- Screw protectors.....saved my ass many times.
Everyone here will tell you they are the best rads you can get.

For pump and res, I prefer no combo. The pump vibrates a bit and is easier to decouple for sound when mounted by itself on a Shoggy Sandwich. One D5 type pump is all you need. You won't gain performance from two pumps. You might actually loose some performance due to the extra heat they will dump in your loop.
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post #3 of 32
Thread Starter 
Would a single Alphacool NexXxoS Monsta 240 with p/p cool a single 130watt(or less) cpu and two 150watt_ish GPU's? Maybe get lucky and see 100watt or less GTX_860's!
And what pump and res? Less than 6" for the res.

Thx,
KS
post #4 of 32
Two cards and a cpu on only a240 monsta is a bit of a strech. You can do it if you are willing to put up with faster fans.
With those components, I really would recommend more raddage. If you don't have the room in your case, you can use one of these to mount a 360 or 480 on the back of your box.

For pump, go with any D5 type pump.

For res, you don't actually need one. It just makes filling and bleeding easier, and it looks cool. You can get away with a simple fill port on top of your loop. But res selection is more of an easthetic choice to me.
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post #5 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightsilver View Post

Wanting quiet and less area/space taken by the fans and rads.
Looking at BlackIce SR1 Low Air Flow Optimized 120mm(link) & 240mm(link)
Currently using two Noctua NF-F12 PWM fans, and would get a few more for said rads. The question is, can I get away with just a set of push fans?

Thinner rads,
Black Ice GT Stealth 120/240 X-Flow (link1) (link2)
Id even consider a single 360 rad with push/pull?

Setup:
Single CPU (115x/2011) Overclock would be kept under stock volts
2 GPU's (Will see lots of cuda rendering)

Pump/Res_combo, cpu, 120mm rad, gpu1, gpu2, 240mm rad, pump/res_combo.

Looking at a dual redundant Pump/Res_Combo with good back pressure or what ever it may be called?
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/16942/ex-res-421/XSPC_Twin_D5_Dual_525_Bay_Clear_Reservoir_-_w_Dual_MCP655_Series_Pumps_Installed.html?tl=g30c107s152

Feedback?
KS'

Can you give us some more specific clearance numbers? Generally you want to use the thickest rad you can fit in push/pull for optimal performance. Rads with thicker fin density benefit more from push/pull than less dense FPI rads do, as previously stated. We can recommend the right radiator if you give us the exact clearance you have. Also what noise levels can you tolerate? Higher RPM fans will cool more, so knowing what kind of noise levels you can tolerate will help us determine what fan would be best for you.

The biggest thing to remember is that the performance gain is % based. So if you gain a 20% more performance but your liquid is 1 Celsius hotter than your ambient temps, also known as having a delta temp or dT of 1celsius, you'll notice at best a .2% celsius lower temp. A 3.120mm rad [ a 360 rad] you will remove around 200 watts of heat @ 10 celsius delta temp. With JUST a 2.120mm rad you're looking at bare minimum a 20celsius delta temp @ full load, so that % could amount to a notable gain for you.

On a side note your CPU only has 120watts heatload if it's un-overclocked. If you plan on overclocking it, like so many with a liquid cooling loop do, you're looking at upwards of 200 watts of heat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PepeLapiu View Post

Thinner low fpi rads still benefit from p/p, just not as much as thicker high fpi ones.
And if you plan on getting low speed fans, the gain of p/p is even less, but still there is a gain.
I personally prefer to go as thick as possible, using p/p and low fpi, as in Alphacool rads. If I can't fit p/p, I go down in size until I do.

I like the Alphacool full copper line best for the folliwing reasons:
- Low fpi
- Very low coolant pressure drop.
- Best performers. Below 1000 rpm, the ST30 is king.
- All copper construction, even the tubes.
- 6 ports for multiple choice, and a drain port on thicker rads, like tge UT60 and Monsta.
- Screw protectors.....saved my ass many times.
Everyone here will tell you they are the best rads you can get.

For pump and res, I prefer no combo. The pump vibrates a bit and is easier to decouple for sound when mounted by itself on a Shoggy Sandwich. One D5 type pump is all you need. You won't gain performance from two pumps. You might actually loose some performance due to the extra heat they will dump in your loop.

The solder is mainly tin. wink.gif

Lots of people will also tell you Hardware Labs are the best.

The truth is the best rad is dependent on the individual build. I don't think it's wise to say "GET THIS RAD" before knowing exactly what sound level and radiator size the OP is willing to utilize
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post #6 of 32
Thread Starter 
Thanks guys for ur time, just a water noob! As for noise, under 30_dBa.....

Here is my current "ATM" working plan for a desktop/htpc type case, Ill be building my own case. I just want to be able to fit snug into a shelf!



Ill get back to this post later, thx,
K'
Edited by knightsilver - 3/4/14 at 7:14am
post #7 of 32
Do not get the GTS. They are not good radiators for anyone wanting anything resembling quiet.


If you want quiet use the SR1s. You will be perfectly fine w/ just push. They are the only rads I buy. biggrin.gif

EDIT: You fans are backwards wink.gif. Always try to have your radiator fans grabbing fresh air from outside the case. Even if it means you have a lot of positive air pressure.
Edited by lowfat - 3/4/14 at 7:17am
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post #8 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfat View Post

Do not get the GTS. They are not good radiators for anyone wanting anything resembling quiet.


If you want quiet use the SR1s. You will be perfectly fine w/ just push. They are the only rads I buy. biggrin.gif

GTS aren't quiet how? Fans determine noise for the most part. Thinner rads are less restrictive than thicker ones, even if they have the same fin density.

Take a look at martins graphs: http://martinsliquidlab.org/2012/04/14/360-radiator-shootout-summary/

The Swiftech XP series is right up there with the UT 60 @ 1000RPM, and that was with just push. Now that's a 20FPI rad, the GTS is 30FPI. I would go as far to argue that a GTS in push/pull with decent fans, maybe GT AP14s, would outperform the UT60 in just push with the same fans. Unfortunately there isn't much testing out there on comparing fin densities in push vs push pull, and even less testing on the GTS.
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post #9 of 32
20 to 30 FPI is a 50% increase in fin density. That is a big difference.
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post #10 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZytheEKS View Post

The solder is mainly tin. wink.gif
I beleive that holds true for just about every rad out there but one brand: the aquacomputer ones. So I felt no need to mention the tin solder.
Quote:
Lots of people will also tell you Hardware Labs are the best.

That'lots of people' is extremely questionable subjectively because you are the first one ever I hear saying it. You are also the first one ever disagreeing with me that the Alphacool full copper is is the best. So what are the reasons the 'lots of people' would prefer the HL rad anyways? It's tinless construction?
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