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Push vs Push/Pull fans on Lower FPI Rads? - Page 3

post #21 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by PepeLapiu View Post

Others are disagreeing with me on the Alphacool rads.
This is unprecedented.
Because your opinion is the only correct opinion tongue.gif
Quote:
However, I will agree with loose stuff radling inside the rad. One of my 6 rads has that problem. But it will not be an issue once full of water.
Until that loose stuff gets stuck in your pump and destroys it
Quote:
As for uneven fin spacing, I would have to use a ruler and my reading glasses to veryfy this claim. Viisual inspection reveiled no such thing just now. And why is evenly spaced fins important anyway?
Uneven airflow/turbulence. Probably wouldn't make much of a performance difference, but it just goes back to quality control and build quality.
Edited by morencyam - 3/4/14 at 11:13am
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post #22 of 32
Not sure why you keep bringing up the GTX. It wasn't even a rad the thread starter was looking at.

The difference between an SR1 and a ST30 at 1000 rpm will be far less than a single degree.
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post #23 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfat View Post

Not sure why you keep bringing up the GTX. It wasn't even a rad the thread starter was considering

Hmmmm....maybe because someone else brought it up so I wrongly assumed that it had been suggested, or considered. Therefore, I was in direct contravention of the first rule of the universe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfat View Post

Do not get the GTS. They are not good radiators for anyone wanting anything resembling quiet.

And I beleive the SR1 and ST30 would perform equally....only you can't use the ST30 as a home defence weapon due to it's unequal fin spacing. biggrin.gif
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post #24 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfat View Post

Not sure why you keep bringing up the GTX. It wasn't even a rad the thread starter was looking at.

The difference between an SR1 and a ST30 at 1000 rpm will be far less than a single degree.
I mentioned the quality of HWL rads and referenced the GTX since that was the only HWL rad I've ever owned. I compared it against the ST30 solely in terms of build quality and never once mentioned performance until Mr Right did
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post #25 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by PepeLapiu View Post

I beleive that holds true for just about every rad out there but one brand: the aquacomputer ones. So I felt no need to mention the tin solder.
That'lots of people' is extremely questionable subjectively because you are the first one ever I hear saying it. You are also the first one ever disagreeing with me that the Alphacool full copper is is the best. So what are the reasons the 'lots of people' would prefer the HL rad anyways? It's tinless construction?

HW Labs rads are great because of their build quality. The paint doesn't chip off as the rad heats up/cools, it has screw protectors, fin spacing is consistent, no crap inside, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PepeLapiu View Post

I strongly douth that the GTS rad would outperform the UT60 at 1000 rpm, no matter what fan configuration you use. The data collected by Martin is pretty darn obvious that higher FPI rads don't perform at low speed and need to get high rpm to shine.I'll bet you your sister's phone number you own a GTS rad?
If you look here, at slower speeds the GTS is the worst performer. My guess is you won't see the GTS shine below 4000 rpm, that makes it a pretty darn noisy rad to me.

THE GTS ISN'T EVEN ON THAT LIST!

In addition those tests were done in push, push/pull favors higher FPI rads. I specifically said a GTS in push/pull with 1500RPM [ the AP14] would beat the Alphacool UT 60 in just push, which would both have similar thicknesses.
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post #26 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by morencyam View Post

I mentioned the quality of HWL rads and referenced the GTX since that was the only HWL rad I've ever owned. I compared it against the ST30 solely in terms of build quality and never once mentioned performance until Mr Right did

Mr. Right?
Who told you my last name?
Never the less, I encourage you to read the following quote of who's author shall remain un-named:
Quote:
If you want performance and very high quality, then HWL is the way to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZytheEKS View Post

HW Labs rads are great because of their build quality. The paint doesn't chip off as the rad heats up/cools, it has screw protectors, fin spacing is consistent, no crap inside, etc.

You forgot well aligned logo sticker. rolleyes.gif

But in spite of the occasional crud inside, crooked logo, and their uneven fin spacing detectable only with a ruler and reading glasses, the Nexxos rads still manage to be the best performers.
You are trying to compare your luxury car to my econo minivan. Only, my econo minivan handles corners better, goes faster, and accelerates faster on better fuel economy.
But at least, you have cup holders, big car payments.

And btw, I Googled "alphacool radiator paint flaking off" and found only two relevent results. On one of them, it's not even clear if the rad is new or second hand.
Furthermore, nobody sees the uneven fin spacing with the naked eye, and the occasional crud stuck inside is inconsequent to the performance, funtionality, and look. It is merely a nuissance when you shake the empty rad. That might be worth mentioning if they were meant to be empty, or shaken during use.
Quote:
THE GTS ISN'T EVEN ON THAT LIST!

In that case, I am wrong, and again in direct contravention of the first rule of the universe. Luckily, the second rule of the universe saves my bum.
In all honesty, I thought the GTX and the GTS were one and the same. But to me, if Martin didn't test it, that rad doesn't exist. It is in limbo somewhere between the 4th and 5th dimension of an other universe.....but that's just me. See first rule of the universe for more details. biggrin.gif
Quote:
In addition those tests were done in push, push/pull favors higher FPI rads.

Not just high fpi rads gain more from p/p. Thick rads do too. Virtually all rads that offer more air pressure drop will be favored by p/p. This is because single fans struggle to push air throught high fpi and thicker rads.
Quote:
I specifically said a GTS in push/pull with 1500RPM [ the AP14] would beat the Alphacool UT 60 in just push, which would both have similar thicknesses.

That's not a fair comparison. Virtually every single rad, the ones tested by Martin anyway, would beat the UT60 if they are given p/p versus a push alone UT60.
If you want to make a fair comparison, compare it to the ST30 in p/p. But since those two are not compared in any test I know, you'd have to bring it back from that alternate universe and get Martin to test it.

Your wishful projected theories on how your rad would perform in a non-existant unfair comparative test are not sufficient.
Edited by PepeLapiu - 3/5/14 at 1:11am
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post #27 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by PepeLapiu View Post

Mr. Right?
Who told you my last name?
Never the less, I encourage you to read the following quote of who's author shall remain un-named:

You forgot well aligned logo sticker. : rolleyes:

But in spite of the occasional crud inside, crooked logo, and their uneven fin spacing detectable only with a ruler and reading glasses, the Nexxos rads still manage to be the best performers.
You are trying to compare your luxury car to my econo minivan. Only, my econo minivan handles corners better, goes faster, and accelerates faster on better fuel economy.
But at least, you have cup holders, big car payments.

And btw, I Googled "alphacool radiator paint flaking off" and found only two relevent results. On one of them, it's not even clear if the rad is new or second hand.
Furthermore, nobody sees the uneven fin spacing with the naked eye, and the occasional crud stuck inside is inconsequent to the performance, funtionality, and look. It is merely a nuissance when you shake the empty rad. That might be worth mentioning if they were meant to be empty, or shaken during use.
In that case, I am wrong, and again in direct contravention of the first rule of the universe. Luckily, the second rule of the universe saves my bum.
In all honesty, I thought the GTX and the GTS were one and the same. But to me, if Martin didn't test it, that rad doesn't exist. It is in limbo somewhere between the 4th and 5th dimension of an other universe.....but that's just me. See first rule of the universe for more details. biggrin.gif
Not just high fpi rads gain more from p/p. Thick rads do too. Virtually all rads that offer more air pressure drop will be favored by p/p. This is because single fans struggle to push air throught high fpi and thicker rads.


That's not a fair comparison. Virtually every single rad, the ones tested by Martin anyway, would beat the UT60 if they are given p/p versus a push alone UT60.
If you want to make a fair comparison, compare it to the ST30 in p/p. But since those two are not compared in any test I know, you'd have to bring it back from that alternate universe and get Martin to test it.

Your wishful projected theories on how your rad would perform in a non-existant unfair comparative test are not sufficient.

You know following a reliable reviewer religiously with your views on the products testing is all fine and dandy until that said person stops reviewing things and all newer products are out of the equation. wink.gif

Unfortunately when I tried to Google comparisons between GTS rads in push/pull vs thicker rads in just push the first page of links was all links to this page. XD
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post #28 of 32
Here is what I have been advocating for the last two years on here about rads.
Far more important than rad specs such as thickness and fpi count, is the amount of fresh air that passes throught the rad. You got fresh air, you got cooling power.

This is why slim low fpi rads, such as the ST30 and SR1 perform actually better at slow rpm. They have less pressure drop for the fans to move that precious fresh air across them.
Furthermore, as the air travels down the fins, it gradually warms up. The longer it stays in the rad, the more it warms up. That's a good thing, as it's absorbing the heat from the water. But the warmer the air gets, the more 'useless' it becomes to the cooling process. This is yet and other reason why the ST30 outperforms it's twice as thick UT60 big brother below 1000 rpm. At slow rpm, the thicker UT60 just holds more 'useless' air for a longer time.

This is also why doubling thickness, doubling fpi count, never results in doubling of the cooling, unless you are willing to go p/p at insane speeds. At slow speeds, thickness and fin count actually hurts the performance.

What matters most is fresh air movement throught the rad.
This is why rad thickness and fpi matter very little.
And this is also why p/p will increase your rad's cooling power by at least 20% on most rads.
Doubling of the fans results in doubling of air static pressure throught your rad, hence more fresh air.

So given any useable fan rpm at useable range (below 2500 rpm) all rads will beat virtually every other rad out there, given push/pull versus push alone.
Edited by PepeLapiu - 3/5/14 at 1:07am
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post #29 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZytheEKS View Post

You know following a reliable reviewer religiously with your views on the products testing is all fine and dandy until that said person stops reviewing things and all newer products are out of the equation. wink.gif

Unfortunately when I tried to Google comparisons between GTS rads in push/pull vs thicker rads in just push the first page of links was all links to this page. XD

On the other hand, googling 'pepe first rule of the universe' returned no significant results.....I think there is something wrong with Google. tongue.gif
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post #30 of 32
With all this flaming, not many of us addressed OP's concerns. So here I am.
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightsilver View Post

I dont give a damn about a few %'s, just high quality, and quality control from which ever brand of rad and pump I go with.

With a set of NF-F12 PWN fan(s)
Res/pump, cpu, 120mm rad, gpu1, gpu2, 240mm rad, res/pump?
http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=productview&products_id=42&lng=en



Are the Aquacomputer rads worth it? I only want to buy rads once.
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/14727/ex-rad-326/Aquacomputer_Airplex_Modularity_System_240_Radiator_-_Aluminum_Fins_-_Single_Circuit_33006.html?tl=g30c95s160

Or the XSPC AX's?
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/17141/ex-rad-440/XSPC_AX240_Dual_120mm_Radiator_w_Aluminum_Enclosure_-_Black.html?tl=g30c95s160

Also, feedback on layout,
Unless you get the very pricey Aquaero 6 fan controller, PWM fans are not a good idea on radiators. I'll elaborate more on this if you want at a later time.
I recommend Gentle Typhoon fans as the very best option for 120mm rads. And I know NOBODY will disagree on this. Maybe Cougar fans not a bad idea. And Yate Loon fans on.a budget. But Yates don't like being installed laying down.

The air flow design is undoubtedly the most important aspect of a good loop.
I see that you have both rads push air out. That is good. You should ALWAYS have all your rads exhausting, or all intaking.
However, in the proposed config, there will be negative pressure as was already mentionned. That's not good. You generally want slightly more air being pulled into your case, than air being pushed out.

Also, the rad fans can't indefinately push out case air, more air needs to be pulling in if you don't want to starve your rad fans of precious cool air.

So if you keep this air flow pattern, you will need quite a few more case fans intaking air. More than that one back fan, that's for sure. Can you install more fans in the floor? Or side panels maybe?
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