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[RT] OCZ Launches New Z Drive 4500 PCIe SSD Series - Page 5

post #41 of 95
You don't need to overclock anything either if we're being honest. I thought the conversation would be about performance on a website called OVERCLOCK.NET.

I notice this happens on all the sub forums here, people with old/dated/lesser hardware steer people away from the high end. What's the point of a price to performance conversation when talking about a product that has the word enterprise right in the description? Obviously it's not meant for consumers, the question is HOW FAST IS IT? At 250k 4k random read iops and and ~3GB/s sequential, the answer seems to be: PRETTY FAST.
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post #42 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbreslin View Post

You don't need to overclock anything either if we're being honest. I thought the conversation would be about performance on a website called OVERCLOCK.NET.

I notice this happens on all the sub forums here, people with old/dated/lesser hardware steer people away from the high end. What's the point of a price to performance conversation when talking about a product that has the word enterprise right in the description? Obviously it's not meant for consumers, the question is HOW FAST IS IT? At 250k 4k random read iops and and ~3GB/s sequential, the answer seems to be: PRETTY FAST.

Overclocking can yield usable benefits though. Play BF4 on sub-$300 CPU with a good video card.... CPU bottleneck. Run some CPU-based encoding.... CPU bottleneck.

Enterprise is not just about price-to-performance. The cost of enterprise also includes reliability, longevity, validation, robustness, and warranty costs. Very very few home users benefit or can even utilize some of these features. Enterprise can also perform slower than consumer parts.

"How fast is it?" is one thing.
"I want it so I can play games or encode faster!" is another thing. Would it not be appropriate to point out that it would provide zero benefits in these workloads?
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post #43 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by jellis142 View Post

I love how a few faulty products and firmware can absolutely destroy the reputation of a company frown.gif

It is HOW they handled it that destroyed their reputation. I was personally burned with 2 ssds myself. Sent 2 got only 1 in return. If they kept the support team (toshiba) no way im buying an OCZ product.
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post #44 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Overclocking can yield usable benefits though. Play BF4 on sub-$300 CPU with a good video card.... CPU bottleneck. Run some CPU-based encoding.... CPU bottleneck.

Enterprise is not just about price-to-performance. The cost of enterprise also includes reliability, longevity, validation, robustness, and warranty costs. Very very few home users benefit or can even utilize some of these features. Enterprise can also perform slower than consumer parts.

"How fast is it?" is one thing.
"I want it so I can play games or encode faster!" is another thing. Would it not be appropriate to point out that it would provide zero benefits in these workloads?

Sure if the benefit was in fact, zero. With the majority of io taking place via small block random read/write during most people's computing day (including *gasp* gaming), it only seems logical to me that increasing small block random iops improves the experience.

How large the improvement is and if it's worth the price you would pay for enterprise solutions capable of pushing a much larger number of iops is certainly worthy of discussion, but it's not the same as just saying "there is no benefit".
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post #45 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbreslin View Post

Sure if the benefit was in fact, zero. With the majority of io taking place via small block random read/write during most people's computing day (including *gasp* gaming), it only seems logical to me that increasing small block random iops improves the experience.

How large the improvement is and if it's worth the price you would pay for enterprise solutions capable of pushing a much larger number of iops is certainly worthy of discussion, but it's not the same as just saying "there is no benefit".

Nope, there is marginal benefits for a faster SSD for consumer workloads. Basically, modern SSDs have reached a "good enough" state for mainstream consumers (that includes gamers). In addition... as I already explained, most consumer PCIe SSDs perform identical to SATA SSDs since they utilize the same controller and NAND.

It might sound logical but you are ignoring other factors. Consumer workloads have relatively low queue depths. In addition, while 90% of disk access is random these are in low enough volume to not stress a modern SSD. Furthermore, there also remains other performance bottlenecks or sequential execution blocks.

Go look at real-world application benchmarks with modern SSDs.... Of course, one can stress test SSDs to find their best-case performance but very few consumer workloads come close.
Edited by DuckieHo - 3/5/14 at 12:13pm
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post #46 of 95
I'm pretty sure M.2 is going allow faster drives. The NAND will be the same - there is no reason to change - but the controllers are going to be faster. Marvell is working on one that can run at 1.5GB/s for example. Plextor is selling one of their M.2 drives either standalone for laptop users or with an x4 adapter for desktop users.

But realistically there is no point in getting a faster drive unless you know you have a need for it. Access times are near-zero, random speeds are ridiculous, sequential speeds are bottlenecked by the SATA interface... Is there any point in getting a super-fast performance SSD? Not really, but it's fun.
Edited by CynicalUnicorn - 3/5/14 at 12:16pm
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post #47 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangur View Post

Not touching anything OCZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt View Post

rofl but yeah, I have had nothing but horrible experiences with OCZ.

OCZ are the pioneers of solid state technology. They had a bad firmware one time, and only a few people had issues. Plus, it was not entirely their fault.
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post #48 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

I'm pretty sure M.2 is going allow faster drives. The NAND will be the same - there is no reason to change - but the controllers are going to be faster. Marvell is working on one that can run at 1.5GB/s for example. Plextor is selling one of their M.2 drives either standalone for laptop users or with an x4 adapter for desktop users.
M.2 is just a smaller implementation of SATA-Express.

It will allow faster drives in sequential performance as random performance is not even close to being bottlenecked by the interface. Sequential performance is of limited usage in consumer workloads. How often do you load a few GB of continuous data into memory? Even with games loading large textures, there often requires some CPU delays for decompression (depends on the how the game packages). How many people more GBs of data across disks/storage array capable of matching performance end-to-end?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradleyW View Post


OCZ are the pioneers of solid state technology. They had a bad firmware one time, and only a few people had issues. Plus, it was not entirely their fault.
They actually had probably 7-18 bad firmware. I know there were at least 2 bad Indilinx Barefoot updates. SandForce SF-2xxx had quite a few over the course of a year.

That being said... Intel had at least 3 and Micron had at least 1 as well.
Edited by DuckieHo - 3/5/14 at 12:22pm
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post #49 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

M.2 is just a smaller implementation of SATA-Express.

It will allow faster drives in sequential performance as random performance is not even close to being bottlenecked by the interface. Sequential performance is of limited usage in consumer workloads. How often do you load a few GB of continuous data into memory? Even with games loading large textures, there often requires some CPU delays for decompression (depends on the how the game packages). How many people more GBs of data across disks/storage array capable of matching performance end-to-end?

Sure, sequential speeds don't need to be increased for most purposes. However, marketers are already using the bandwidth PCIe drives offer: epeen. Does any consumer really "need" 1.2GB/s in a laptop? Of course not, but the marketers are going to make them think so. In the race to make faster and faster drives, LSI or Marvell will compete to make the fastest controller. This will benefit random speeds as well as sequential speeds. Right now, 4k speeds wouldn't even be bottlenecked by PATA. Since we're reaching a wall and can't say that Laptop X has more jiggahertz than Laptop Y, the next logical step is to say that Laptop X's SSD has more jiggabit-Hertz than Laptop Y's.
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post #50 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

Sure, sequential speeds don't need to be increased for most purposes. However, marketers are already using the bandwidth PCIe drives offer: epeen. Does any consumer really "need" 1.2GB/s in a laptop? Of course not, but the marketers are going to make them think so. In the race to make faster and faster drives, LSI or Marvell will compete to make the fastest controller. This will benefit random speeds as well as sequential speeds. Right now, 4k speeds wouldn't even be bottlenecked by PATA. Since we're reaching a wall and can't say that Laptop X has more jiggahertz than Laptop Y, the next logical step is to say that Laptop X's SSD has more jiggabit-Hertz than Laptop Y's.

That's not necessarily true. Controller firmware can be tuned to increase one over the other.

When the first-generation of the modern SSD came out, all the companies were pushing for high sequential performance. That is until the dirty block limitation was discovered and companies began to realize that they need to better check random performance over time. Anand had gotten an early firmware release of the original Vertex and he explained the issue to OCZ. OCZ then updated the firmware to increase random performance.

Honestly, LSI is probably focusing on making more reliable controllers rather than faster since they focus on enterprise.
Edited by DuckieHo - 3/5/14 at 12:56pm
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