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My 2014 Build - Page 3

post #21 of 35
What's your 3dmark score?
post #22 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastertrixter View Post

What's your 3dmark score?

i'll let you know after work,


i have to get a new case no matter what the one i have is falling a part, as for the MoBo 1 card on x4 is most likely my bottleneck maybe i wanna get the AMD FX 990FX Asus but im not sure its truely worth $234
post #23 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastertrixter View Post

honestly its not really worth the money to go from an amd 6 core to an 8 core.....

It's from a 3 module zambezi to a 4 module Vishera. The reduced CMT scaling losses by having more resources to work with on the 4 module, combined with the higher IPC and compute efficiency of the Vishera core architecture, should translate to an easy 20-25% improvement in gaming performance, more if it will clock higher. Normally I would agree that from say, an FX-6300 to an FX-8320, there isn't much point, as the additional parallelism by itself often only translates to ~10% improvement in games like BF3/4, less when you consider than the FX-6300 almost always overclocks higher. When the combination of the improved IPCC characteristics of Vishera are combined with the improvement of having more modules, the difference may be justify-able for someone who is teetering on acceptable performance levels.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandBizkit View Post

750w might be pushing it with the 8320. I have 8350 and two 7850's and I don't think that the cpu is getting enough juice.

It's not the PSU that is limiting the "juice" to the CPU, it's that 4+1 phase motherboard you've got.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mastertrixter View Post

what makes you think your cpu is bottlenecking.....

im running cf 7850s and i never see about 80%cpu or gpu usage in games

If you never get a CPU core pegged at 100%, and never get a GPU pegged at 100%, then you either have throttling, or something is wrong. One or the other will always peg when things are working correctly in a non-throttled real-time render. CPU usage can't be observed as a "whole" on multi-core platforms. Modern game engines have the load broken up into different threads, but most of the draw calls for a real-time render are still made on a one or two CPU cores in most game engines. Some engines spread this out for different parts of the render (different objects, or different layers of the render), but there will almost always be a dominant few threads that will determine whether or not there is a CPU bottleneck.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sad View Post


when i run BF3 at 4.6Ghz i get 120+ FPS if im not mistaken 3.8Ghz 60Fps,

You have a CPU bottleneck. This is very obvious based on this result. You are correct to assume that a CPU upgrade will improve your performance.
Quote:
plus this mobo doesnt have 2 x16 slots its a 1 x16 1x4 slot

This may be the least of your concerns. Performance scaling on 16X/4X is not as good as 16X16X (or 8x8x), but the difference in HD7850's wouldn't be severe (probably less than 10% in most games) unless you are running resolutions in excess of 1080P.

However, the G43 motherboard may be a source of other problems. Especially if used to drive an overclocked zambezi or if you attempt to use it to power an 8 core vishera. Either way you are probably up against the limits of the VRMs, perhaps beyond.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mastertrixter View Post

that doesn't necessarily mean your cpu is bottle necking. if you run an x series intel processor at stock with the same vid cards it will get less fps than with the cpu overclocked.

If overclocking the CPU increases FPS in a game proportionally to the overclock, then it WAS a CPU bottleneck. If it increases fractionally in relation to the overclock, then the gains are from event-timing and are not related to a CPU bottleneck. In this case, Sad has clearly pointed out large performance scaling with overclocked CPU settings, this points to a blatant and obvious CPU bottleneck.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sad View Post

then whats causing my FPS lag issues then?

Laggy and stuttering performance can often be caused by power saving features, core parking, etc. It can ALSO be caused by throttling that is induced to protect over-heating components. The G43 could be inducing forced lower-power states for short "bursts" (dropping to 1.4ghz@0.9V) in order to prevent overheating the VRMs, if this is happening, it would cause stuttering performance characteristics in game. A new motherboard with a beefy VRM package like the UD7 that you are considering may offer some relief in these areas, though I think the less expensive UD5 may be a better value. The really beefy 990FX boards (~$200+ stuff) are really only beneficial for those who want to push the platform to the absolute limits under custom water cooling (or sub-ambient cooling, like LN2). Getting the FX-83XX/9XXX series past 4.7ghz requires exponential increases in cooling investment. I think there is probably a rational stopping point at the UD5/Extreme9/GD80V2 (all about the same price) to pair with the H110.

Whether or not the FX route offers you a good value sort of depends on what sort of access you have to the hardware (prices?). I'm figuring, microcenter FX-8320 for $100-130 pickup maybe, combined with a $170 UD5/GD80V2/Extreme9 for ~$300 total, vs i7-4770K+Asus Z87-A (or Z87 extreme4) combo from MC for $375. The extra $75 would actually be well spent if you just want to put this "gaming performance" debacle to rest and know that you have enough IPCC to basically overcome any game, regardless of parallel optimizations, while still having similar maximum parallel compute throughput. The 4770K has the side benefit of using about HALF the power.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mastertrixter View Post

you need to check your cpu and gpu usage while in game, if either one is 100% then thats your bottleneck. i seriously doubt either will be 100% though.

If NOTHING will peg close to 100%, then something is being throttled, or isn't working correctly. In a real-time render that is unthrottled, one or the other should always peg. This doesn't mean that it will peg across all cores of a CPU. Even 1 thread pegging 1 core is usually representative of a CPU bottleneck due to a lack of IPS/C to keep up with the available rendering performance on the GPU side.
Quote:
whats the refresh rate on your monitor. if you only have a 60hz refresh rate than anything over 60fps is useless anyways

It's the minimums that count. Would not surprise me if the Zambezi on the G43 were causing lots of undesirable FPS dips below 60FPS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sad View Post


you dont think this is a bottleneck i only have 1 x16 slot 1 x4 slot CPU Load 64% gpu load 40%

If your GPUs are at 40%, then you have a CPU bottleneck. Check the individual core loading. A few cores pegged at 100% is a CPU bottleneck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastertrixter View Post

nope, not at all.

say you have an i7 4770k at stock. your going to get like 70-80fps,

same cpu over clocked to 5ghz is going to get 90-100fps.

but is the cpu bottle necking the gpus, not at all.

honestly you would see a better gain selling off your 7850s and your cpu and mb and going intel i7 or i5 and a gtx 770 or 780.

A 75FPS to 95FPS average going from a 3.5ghz to 4.5ghz i7 clock speed is nearly directly proportional, and as such, is an example of a CPU bottleneck. You have described a CPU bottleneck, and then said that it is not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool Bowties View Post

You CPU is fine, the only thing I can think of might be the x4 bottlenecking the second 7850. If you want a performance gain either get a new motherboard (I can say from experience ASUS's Sabertooth boards are fantastic), or sell your 7850s and get an R9 or GTX 7xx.

The CPU is the most likely source of the performance problem here (with a small chance of it being related to the motherboard VRMs inducing throttling), NOT the 4X PCIE slot. While the 4X slot does impose some scaling limitations, it would not cause GPU usage to stall out at 40% the way that has been reported.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sad View Post

i'll let you know after work,

i have to get a new case no matter what the one i have is falling a part, as for the MoBo 1 card on x4 is most likely my bottleneck maybe i wanna get the AMD FX 990FX Asus but im not sure its truely worth $234

Like I said, if you have access to a MC, then I think you should be comparing whether to get the UD5/Extreme9/GD80V2 + FX-8320 for ~$300, vs an i7-4770K+Z87-A for ~$375. In this "class" I would say that the i7 configuration is the better deal as it is apt to perform better in more games while using less power (making less noise, etc). The Z87-A/Extreme4 are both 8X8X PCIE 3.0 slot configs, so have about the same bandwidth available to a 2 card config as a typical 990FX board.

Soon as you jump up to an FX-8350/9XXX (for an attempt at getting a slightly higher overclock) the price of the AMD option is about the same as the Intel option, at which point, the choice is easy, Intel offers you a better value.




Sad,

If you had started this thread, with the exact same hardware, but from the presumption that you had a GPU bottleneck, everyone would have JUMPED on the opportunity to correct your presumption and tell you that the old Zambezi chip is holding you back. Instead, you made the mistake of already having a pretty good idea of what was wrong with your machine, and already having a pretty good solution planned out. This is in "conflict" with the natural assumption that if you are the one creating a thread that is asking for advice, that any presumptions you have made must automatically be wrong.

People like to participate in an opportunity to "correct" someone, or simply be combative or critical for the sake of it (as evidenced by my very long post above, where I have taken ample opportunities to be critical). The difference between me, and most people on OCN, is that I never assume the OP is wrong out of the gate. More often than not, the OP who is asking for advise, is highly intelligent (as evidenced by the fact that they are willing to seek out additional sources of advise and opinions), and already has a very good plan. Unfortunately, as evidenced by this thread, people like to take up an opposing position and defend it regardless of whether it is correct. Your plan to move to a UD7+FX-8320 was actually pretty *good.*
Edited by mdocod - 3/6/14 at 5:47am
     
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8350 990X EVO R2.0 Sparkle GTX460 768MB ballistix tactical 2 x 8GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Toshiiba THNSNH 256GB Enterprise RE3 1TB Asus BD combo drive Artic A30 
OSMonitorMonitorMonitor
Manjaro Linux Samsung 21.5" LCD E2009WFP E2009WFP 
PowerCase
Seasonic G 550W Modular Fractal Design Core 3500 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-6300, 4.7 GHZ@1.43V GA-970A-UD3P GTX 460 768MB Mixed DIMMs. 2x4GB + 2x8GB @ 1600-8-8-8 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Toshiba THNSNH 19nm 256GB 1TB Spinpoint F3 WD RE3 1TB WD RE3 1TB 
Optical DriveCoolingOSOS
yes CM Seidon 120V SolydK OpenSuse 13.1 
OSOSMonitorMonitor
Linux Mint 9-32 bit // Linux Mint 17-64 bit  Manjaro Xfce Samsung 21.5" HannsG 21.5" sideways! 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Sticky ATNG Rosewill Green 630W NZXT Gamma Basic Microsoft corded 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
A10-6800k 4.8GHZ @ 1.375V, 1.2GHZ iGPU Gigabyte GA-F2A85XN-WIFI HD8670D Ripjaws 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Seagate ST1000DM003 Asus BC-12B1ST/BLK/B/AS Zalman CNPS5X Linux Mint 15 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
LG IPS224V-PN Logitec K360 FSP 400W Aurum S 80+ gold Prodigy 
Mouse
logitec M235 
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8350 990X EVO R2.0 Sparkle GTX460 768MB ballistix tactical 2 x 8GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Toshiiba THNSNH 256GB Enterprise RE3 1TB Asus BD combo drive Artic A30 
OSMonitorMonitorMonitor
Manjaro Linux Samsung 21.5" LCD E2009WFP E2009WFP 
PowerCase
Seasonic G 550W Modular Fractal Design Core 3500 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-6300, 4.7 GHZ@1.43V GA-970A-UD3P GTX 460 768MB Mixed DIMMs. 2x4GB + 2x8GB @ 1600-8-8-8 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Toshiba THNSNH 19nm 256GB 1TB Spinpoint F3 WD RE3 1TB WD RE3 1TB 
Optical DriveCoolingOSOS
yes CM Seidon 120V SolydK OpenSuse 13.1 
OSOSMonitorMonitor
Linux Mint 9-32 bit // Linux Mint 17-64 bit  Manjaro Xfce Samsung 21.5" HannsG 21.5" sideways! 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Sticky ATNG Rosewill Green 630W NZXT Gamma Basic Microsoft corded 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
A10-6800k 4.8GHZ @ 1.375V, 1.2GHZ iGPU Gigabyte GA-F2A85XN-WIFI HD8670D Ripjaws 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Seagate ST1000DM003 Asus BC-12B1ST/BLK/B/AS Zalman CNPS5X Linux Mint 15 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
LG IPS224V-PN Logitec K360 FSP 400W Aurum S 80+ gold Prodigy 
Mouse
logitec M235 
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post #24 of 35
You never gave me an answer OP.
post #25 of 35
yes 4+1 power phase is an issue. switching to a 990 board will help deliver the power and that is exactly what I did. I then proceeded to OC the 8350 to 4.6ghz got it stable and then installed my xfire 7850's and loaded up bf4. Issue was my 630 w psu didnt seem to give enough juice for OC 8350 and two OC 7850's. (CPU and GPU graphs were choppy as hell and didn't get over 14 fps. Switched to my brother's 750w PSU and Issue was left frequent but still intermittent. I have ordered a 1000w evga supernova just to be future proof 10 year psu warranty and I will never worry about power.

I can't run the two 7850's and stock 8350 because there are way too many cpu spike issues I believe indicating either there isn't enough power going to the cpu or that the cpu is bottlenecking my 7850's. this is in BF4
Project Blackout
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I7 5820k x99 sabertooth Gigabyte G1 Gaming GTX 970 SLI Gigabyte G1 Gaming GTX 970 SLI 
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gskill 1866 western digital 1tb Coolermaster Hyper 212 Windows 10 
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3x ASUS 1080p 144hz evga 1000w Thermaltake Core X9 logitech g700s 
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I7 5820k x99 sabertooth Gigabyte G1 Gaming GTX 970 SLI Gigabyte G1 Gaming GTX 970 SLI 
RAMHard DriveCoolingOS
gskill 1866 western digital 1tb Coolermaster Hyper 212 Windows 10 
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3x ASUS 1080p 144hz evga 1000w Thermaltake Core X9 logitech g700s 
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post #26 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PontiacGTX View Post

Yes.how much money will you be spending on cpu,mobo and case?

My limits $450 the case has to be changed no matter what
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdocod View Post


It's from a 3 module zambezi to a 4 module Vishera. The reduced CMT scaling losses by having more resources to work with on the 4 module, combined with the higher IPC and compute efficiency of the Vishera core architecture, should translate to an easy 20-25% improvement in gaming performance, more if it will clock higher. Normally I would agree that from say, an FX-6300 to an FX-8320, there isn't much point, as the additional parallelism by itself often only translates to ~10% improvement in games like BF3/4, less when you consider than the FX-6300 almost always overclocks higher. When the combination of the improved IPCC characteristics of Vishera are combined with the improvement of having more modules, the difference may be justify-able for someone who is teetering on acceptable performance levels.

It's not the PSU that is limiting the "juice" to the CPU, it's that 4+1 phase motherboard you've got.

If you never get a CPU core pegged at 100%, and never get a GPU pegged at 100%, then you either have throttling, or something is wrong. One or the other will always peg when things are working correctly in a non-throttled real-time render. CPU usage can't be observed as a "whole" on multi-core platforms. Modern game engines have the load broken up into different threads, but most of the draw calls for a real-time render are still made on a one or two CPU cores in most game engines. Some engines spread this out for different parts of the render (different objects, or different layers of the render), but there will almost always be a dominant few threads that will determine whether or not there is a CPU bottleneck.



You have a CPU bottleneck. This is very obvious based on this result. You are correct to assume that a CPU upgrade will improve your performance.
This may be the least of your concerns. Performance scaling on 16X/4X is not as good as 16X16X (or 8x8x), but the difference in HD7850's wouldn't be severe (probably less than 10% in most games) unless you are running resolutions in excess of 1080P.

However, the G43 motherboard may be a source of other problems. Especially if used to drive an overclocked zambezi or if you attempt to use it to power an 8 core vishera. Either way you are probably up against the limits of the VRMs, perhaps beyond.

If overclocking the CPU increases FPS in a game proportionally to the overclock, then it WAS a CPU bottleneck. If it increases fractionally in relation to the overclock, then the gains are from event-timing and are not related to a CPU bottleneck. In this case, Sad has clearly pointed out large performance scaling with overclocked CPU settings, this points to a blatant and obvious CPU bottleneck.

Laggy and stuttering performance can often be caused by power saving features, core parking, etc. It can ALSO be caused by throttling that is induced to protect over-heating components. The G43 could be inducing forced lower-power states for short "bursts" (dropping to 1.4ghz@0.9V) in order to prevent overheating the VRMs, if this is happening, it would cause stuttering performance characteristics in game. A new motherboard with a beefy VRM package like the UD7 that you are considering may offer some relief in these areas, though I think the less expensive UD5 may be a better value. The really beefy 990FX boards (~$200+ stuff) are really only beneficial for those who want to push the platform to the absolute limits under custom water cooling (or sub-ambient cooling, like LN2). Getting the FX-83XX/9XXX series past 4.7ghz requires exponential increases in cooling investment. I think there is probably a rational stopping point at the UD5/Extreme9/GD80V2 (all about the same price) to pair with the H110.

Whether or not the FX route offers you a good value sort of depends on what sort of access you have to the hardware (prices?). I'm figuring, microcenter FX-8320 for $100-130 pickup maybe, combined with a $170 UD5/GD80V2/Extreme9 for ~$300 total, vs i7-4770K+Asus Z87-A (or Z87 extreme4) combo from MC for $375. The extra $75 would actually be well spent if you just want to put this "gaming performance" debacle to rest and know that you have enough IPCC to basically overcome any game, regardless of parallel optimizations, while still having similar maximum parallel compute throughput. The 4770K has the side benefit of using about HALF the power.

If NOTHING will peg close to 100%, then something is being throttled, or isn't working correctly. In a real-time render that is unthrottled, one or the other should always peg. This doesn't mean that it will peg across all cores of a CPU. Even 1 thread pegging 1 core is usually representative of a CPU bottleneck due to a lack of IPS/C to keep up with the available rendering performance on the GPU side.
It's the minimums that count. Would not surprise me if the Zambezi on the G43 were causing lots of undesirable FPS dips below 60FPS.

If your GPUs are at 40%, then you have a CPU bottleneck. Check the individual core loading. A few cores pegged at 100% is a CPU bottleneck.

A 75FPS to 95FPS average going from a 3.5ghz to 4.5ghz i7 clock speed is nearly directly proportional, and as such, is an example of a CPU bottleneck. You have described a CPU bottleneck, and then said that it is not.

The CPU is the most likely source of the performance problem here (with a small chance of it being related to the motherboard VRMs inducing throttling), NOT the 4X PCIE slot. While the 4X slot does impose some scaling limitations, it would not cause GPU usage to stall out at 40% the way that has been reported.

Like I said, if you have access to a MC, then I think you should be comparing whether to get the UD5/Extreme9/GD80V2 + FX-8320 for ~$300, vs an i7-4770K+Z87-A for ~$375. In this "class" I would say that the i7 configuration is the better deal as it is apt to perform better in more games while using less power (making less noise, etc). The Z87-A/Extreme4 are both 8X8X PCIE 3.0 slot configs, so have about the same bandwidth available to a 2 card config as a typical 990FX board.

Soon as you jump up to an FX-8350/9XXX (for an attempt at getting a slightly higher overclock) the price of the AMD option is about the same as the Intel option, at which point, the choice is easy, Intel offers you a better value.




Sad,

If you had started this thread, with the exact same hardware, but from the presumption that you had a GPU bottleneck, everyone would have JUMPED on the opportunity to correct your presumption and tell you that the old Zambezi chip is holding you back. Instead, you made the mistake of already having a pretty good idea of what was wrong with your machine, and already having a pretty good solution planned out. This is in "conflict" with the natural assumption that if you are the one creating a thread that is asking for advice, that any presumptions you have made must automatically be wrong.

People like to participate in an opportunity to "correct" someone, or simply be combative or critical for the sake of it (as evidenced by my very long post above, where I have taken ample opportunities to be critical). The difference between me, and most people on OCN, is that I never assume the OP is wrong out of the gate. More often than not, the OP who is asking for advise, is highly intelligent (as evidenced by the fact that they are willing to seek out additional sources of advise and opinions), and already has a very good plan. Unfortunately, as evidenced by this thread, people like to take up an opposing position and defend it regardless of whether it is correct. Your plan to move to a UD7+FX-8320 was actually pretty *good.*

+Rep Sah you were correct about my CPU Lowering itsself during load, but in the long wrong how long can a i7 4770k last me in the end?
post #27 of 35
An i7 4770k for gaming easily 3 or 4 years PCPartPicker part list: http://pcpartpicker.com/p/12dnr
Price breakdown by merchant: http://pcpartpicker.com/p/12dnr/by_merchant/
Benchmarks: http://pcpartpicker.com/p/12dnr/benchmarks/

CPU: Intel Core i7-4770K 3.5GHz Quad-Core Processor ($319.99 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: ASRock Z87 Extreme4 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($119.99 @ Microcenter)
Total: $439.98
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-03-06 13:19 EST-0500)
post #28 of 35
Well since mdocod basically said everything I was gunna, I'll suggest some cases.

NZXT H440 is fantastic, same an the Fractal Design Define R4.
In-Win Dragon Rider is great too, surprisingly quiet, thats if you want a full-tower.
Corsair Obsidian cases are really the only ones worth it IMO.

or this (dont buy it)
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=24402
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post #29 of 35
Quote:

I really want this for some reason.
post #30 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achromatis View Post

I really want this for some reason.
Oh don't worry I'm right there with you, yet at the same time I know its going to be a big pile of crap.
If anything I would buy it just to take that massive fan off the side and attach it to the side of my case, the 200mm isnt big enough XD
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