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[hardocp] BF4 AMD Mantle Video Card Performance Review Part 1 - Page 15

post #141 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by the9quad View Post

To be honest, most games work fine. The ones that don't you just turn off crossfire and you are no worse off than the guy with one card anyway, takes all of 2 seconds. On the other hand the games where it does work which is most of them, it makes hitting high fps for high refresh rates with all eye candy on, pretty sweet. So far I think the only games I personally have played that have issues has been rust it had flickering textures, and day-z. I had issues with shadow warrior too i believe but that was something on my end, it works now. Everything else seems to work fine.

I never said things didn't work or didn't work fine. The issue is that as soon as I popped in my GTX 780, I immediately fired up every benchmark I had. The framerates were LOWER, but the experience was SMOOTHER. There wasn't all that hitching and stuff that AMD's frame-pacing driver has caused in certain games and benchmarks. In fact, I haven't found a single scenario on my 780 so far where I was disappointed by the experience because of frame hitching or stutter. (good thing too, the 780 is a $500 card)

Now, there were games like BF4 where the experience was amazing on my dual HD 7870 MYST crossfire setup. It was super fast and responsive, even at highest details. I loved that part of it. I just wish every other game had been the same way.

AMD has made great strides in multi-gpu smoothness, and I applaud them for that, but they still have a ways to go before everything is great.
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post #142 of 149
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Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

Please show proof where 3/4-way crossfire is the way to go. Based on my experience, multi-card setups are cool, but are also a pain to deal with... especially on the AMD side of things. Benchmarking is one thing, but living with that setup for gaming isn't ideal.

High-end single card > mediocre multi-card.
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/11/01/amd_radeon_r9_290x_crossfire_video_card_review/3

Higher settings higher average the same minimum and SLI would continue to scale.
At the same settings CF 290X will stomp both the Ti and the Titan in SLI apples to apples once you go beyond 2 cards SLI scaling will colapse to the point where it is no longer viable AMD keeps scaling in some most titles.
post #143 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/11/01/amd_radeon_r9_290x_crossfire_video_card_review/3

Higher settings higher average the same minimum and SLI would continue to scale.
At the same settings CF 290X will stomp both the Ti and the Titan in SLI apples to apples once you go beyond 2 cards SLI scaling will colapse to the point where it is no longer viable AMD keeps scaling in some most titles.

My question wasn't about 2 card scaling... rolleyes.gif I'm more interested in 3/4 cards, and I'd love to see some actual numbers rather than taking someone's word for it.

No one here is questioning the scaling of the R9 290(x) for 2 cards... it's superior to the 780's simply because the memory bus is bigger and the VRAM is higher. I also think AMD's new bridge-less crossfire may have something to do with it as well.

But lord have mercy, I hope you've either got a WC setup or some stout headphones. Even a 2 290 setup would be super loud on stock cooling. After tasting dual HD 7870 MYST coolers for the better part of 6 months, I'm glad to be on a very quiet nvidia cooler.
Edited by Mad Pistol - 3/8/14 at 7:58am
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post #144 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

I never said things didn't work or didn't work fine. The issue is that as soon as I popped in my GTX 780, I immediately fired up every benchmark I had. The framerates were LOWER, but the experience was SMOOTHER. There wasn't all that hitching and stuff that AMD's frame-pacing driver has caused in certain games and benchmarks. In fact, I haven't found a single scenario on my 780 so far where I was disappointed by the experience because of frame hitching or stutter. (good thing too, the 780 is a $500 card)

Now, there were games like BF4 where the experience was amazing on my dual HD 7870 MYST crossfire setup. It was super fast and responsive, even at highest details. I loved that part of it. I just wish every other game had been the same way.

AMD has made great strides in multi-gpu smoothness, and I applaud them for that, but they still have a ways to go before everything is great.

This matches my experience going from red to green as well. Single card 7970 was fine and performed GREAT in benchmarks and games. CFX worked okay...SOMETIMES. I even enjoyed my 7970s in this respect because my ref cards OC'ed well and performed well. But as soon as I stepped out of the single card "box" and did anything odd? It all went to hell. Some CFX games performed great. Others crashed for months on end in CF (Witcher 2 for 5 months). Problems after problems after problems. Surround and CF? Nightmare. Crashes, BSODs, beta drivers causing a black screen on reboot, ugh. Absolute nightmare. It just was NOT worth it. Now AMD has improved a bit since then but...not enough.

In the end it all boils down to AMD's software department crapping the bed more often than not, whereas nvidia tends to throw more money at their software engineers and it shows, on average, with more polish, more features, and a better user experience. That isn't to say nvidia is perfect but in the end, my experience has just been better on the green side in terms of software not giving me problems. Does NV have occasional driver bugs? sure. Do they take 2 years or more to address them like AMD does? In my experience, fixes are fast and prompt, and performance drivers for new games happen in the first week. NV wins software by a landslide IMO - the fact that AMD took more than 2 years to even partially address CF / surround frame pacing, and nearly 2 years to address single card frame pacing, should be eye opening. Red fans will deny it all day long but these are problems that AMD admitted to and you can just look at their response. Fixes took years or more.

AMD is improving but not at the pace I want them to. I'd like them to be on par with nvidia, as that would drive the competetive GPU landscape which is something myself and every consumer wants. As of right now, the way I see things is, AMD only looks at performance and nothing else. Everything else be damned, so to speak. For instance, the reference 290X. Heat and noise be damned, we only want performance even if the reference cooler is a hot and loud dust buster. Anyway, software matters. Especially for surround, 3d, mGPU, I could go on here. Great hardware is dragged down by poor software, and I hope AMD quickens the pace of improving their software engineering. As things are now, I will only consider AMD for non primary rigs when AMD offers a clear price discount compared to nvidia. AMD has to be cheaper than nvidia because their software is far worse. And as of right now in the US/Canada their prices are wack. Just IMO. When AMD can address that, then they won't have to be considered the cheap budget brand and can actually be a more able competitor. Like I said. Every consumer wants this. AMD isn't where they need to be, but do I want them to have software on par with nvidia? Yes. Do I want them to be a strong competitor? Absolutely. I want AMD to be strong and able company. But the fact of the matter is, for AMD's cheaper MSRP on their GPU products...it is for a reason. They need to eliminate that reason, they need to be a stronger competitor. They need to bring a tougher price fight to nvidia, because I do not like NV's pricing despite liking NV's products.
Edited by xoleras - 3/8/14 at 8:20am
post #145 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

I never said things didn't work or didn't work fine. The issue is that as soon as I popped in my GTX 780, I immediately fired up every benchmark I had. The framerates were LOWER, but the experience was SMOOTHER. There wasn't all that hitching and stuff that AMD's frame-pacing driver has caused in certain games and benchmarks. In fact, I haven't found a single scenario on my 780 so far where I was disappointed by the experience because of frame hitching or stutter. (good thing too, the 780 is a $500 card)

Now, there were games like BF4 where the experience was amazing on my dual HD 7870 MYST crossfire setup. It was super fast and responsive, even at highest details. I loved that part of it. I just wish every other game had been the same way.

AMD has made great strides in multi-gpu smoothness, and I applaud them for that, but they still have a ways to go before everything is great.

So you are judging cf r9 setup based on your 7870 ex[experience? Come on man....
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post #146 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

My question wasn't about 2 card scaling... rolleyes.gif I'm more interested in 3/4 cards, and I'd love to see some actual numbers rather than taking someone's word for it.

No one here is questioning the scaling of the R9 290(x) for 2 cards... it's superior to the 780's simply because the memory bus is bigger and the VRAM is higher. I also think AMD's new bridge-less crossfire may have something to do with it as well.

But lord have mercy, I hope you've either got a WC setup or some stout headphones. Even a 2 290 setup would be super loud on stock cooling. After tasting dual HD 7870 MYST coolers for the better part of 6 months, I'm glad to be on a very quiet nvidia cooler.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TISoJsWbaSc#t=42
The benches on BF4 are pre mantle.


As far as that last part goes it is simply not true I had 2 290's and they were quite and only became loud if you locked the voltage and clocks and ramped up the fan I concur however the stock cooler is so bad another contributing factor is how dense they made the chip the GK110 is over 25% larger in terms of die area.
post #147 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

I never said things didn't work or didn't work fine. The issue is that as soon as I popped in my GTX 780, I immediately fired up every benchmark I had. The framerates were LOWER, but the experience was SMOOTHER. There wasn't all that hitching and stuff that AMD's frame-pacing driver has caused in certain games and benchmarks. In fact, I haven't found a single scenario on my 780 so far where I was disappointed by the experience because of frame hitching or stutter. (good thing too, the 780 is a $500 card)

Now, there were games like BF4 where the experience was amazing on my dual HD 7870 MYST crossfire setup. It was super fast and responsive, even at highest details. I loved that part of it. I just wish every other game had been the same way.

AMD has made great strides in multi-gpu smoothness, and I applaud them for that, but they still have a ways to go before everything is great.

Yeah their older cards need work I hear, the 290/290x's though, don't seem to suffer from it at all, maybe due to the way they work now (no crossfire bridge), in fact they seem to be as smooth Nvidia now, and in some cases smoother.. so yeah they have made progress, but seem to have some area for improvement in their older cards.

If it is a game without crossfire optimization, it will have stuttering though, but the same can be said for nvidia.

I think you guys are judging AMD based off last gen cards, and are neglecting the huge improvements the new architecture has going forward. I am glad you like your nvidia cards, though.

As far as noise though, lets be honest there as well, even NVidia cards in SLI on stock coolers are realistically too loud as well. Are they as loud? no, but they are still too loud in SLI especially 3 cards. So if they are all too loud in multi-card setups, why bother mentioning how loud AMD is? Single card yes, I can see mentioning the sound as it is a huge difference, but not so much when you add another card on stock cooling in the mix.

meant to multiquote xoleras as well, my bad
Edited by the9quad - 3/8/14 at 8:27am
post #148 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by the9quad View Post

Yeah their older cards need work I hear, the 290/290x's though, don't seem to suffer from it at all, maybe due to the way they work now (no crossfire bridge), in fact they seem to be as smooth Nvidia now, and in some cases smoother.. so yeah they have made progress, but seem to have some area for improvement in their older cards.

If it is a game without crossfire optimization, it will have stuttering though, but the same can be said for nvidia.

I think you guys are judging AMD based off last gen cards, and are neglecting the huge improvements the new architecture has going forward. I am glad you like your nvidia cards, though.

As far as noise though, lets be honest there as well, even NVidia cards in SLI on stock coolers are realistically too loud as well. Are they as loud? no, but they are still too loud in SLI especially 3 cards. So if they are all too loud in multi-card setups, why bother mentioning how loud AMD is? Single card yes, I can see mentioning the sound as it is a huge difference, but not so much when you add another card on stock cooling in the mix.

meant to multiquote xoleras as well, my bad

I hear you, and I am glad that AMD is taking steps towards the right direction but I still don't feel they're where they need to be. I mean I've read beta Mantle driver stories that blow my mind, and a lot of older card owners got left in the cold, but I am glad they're taking baby steps. In the end it is all consumerism. If you have a bad experience once, that means you're hesitant to return. I mean if I buy a Ford vehicle and have non stop problems, my next car probably won't be a Ford. Stuff like that you know. I just feel like a lot of it is related to the fact that AMD doesn't have the funds for software development that nvidia has. And it just shows more often than not. Hopefully this is an issue that they can fund more seriously, because like I said, I feel nvidia is way better on the software side of things but I definitely *do* want AMD to step it up here. If they can match NV on that front i'd be happy, because it helps competition and consumers on the market. If AMD and NV are even in performance, with NV winning everything else (software, heat, noise, intangible metrics) that means that a lot of people would just stick with nvidia. That's more or less how I see it. AMD performance is awesome. IMO, AMD has never had much of a problem in terms of performance, not recently anyway. They've been behind at times but not by so much to where they couldn't compete. Non performance metrics? Need work. They need to look at the big picture of a full and complete great user experience, and that encompasses a lot more than just performance. It isn't like a CPU that you just throw in and hey you're done. The reference cooler quality matters, the software matters, the new features that NV adds every couple of months....it's a big value add. My experience with nvidia surround / SLI has been it just worked with minimal hassle. 7970s? not so much. Sometimes worked, a LOT of times it was hassle. But the 290s are improved in that respect I suppose. Anyway AMD is taking baby steps, they need to do more. And if they do, i'll be more than happy as a consumer. I want more choices and I want more competition. Who doesn't?
Edited by xoleras - 3/8/14 at 10:26am
post #149 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoleras View Post

I hear you, and I am glad that AMD is taking steps towards the right direction but I still don't feel they're where they need to be. I mean I've read beta Mantle driver stories that blow my mind, and a lot of older card owners got left in the cold, but I am glad they're taking baby steps. In the end it is all consumerism. If you have a bad experience once, that means you're hesitant to return. I mean if I buy a Ford vehicle and have non stop problems, my next car probably won't be a Ford. Stuff like that you know. I just feel like a lot of it is related to the fact that AMD doesn't have the funds for software development that nvidia has. And it just shows more often than not. Hopefully this is an issue that they can fund more seriously, because like I said, I feel nvidia is way better on the software side of things but I definitely *do* want AMD to step it up here. If they can match NV on that front i'd be happy, because it helps competition and consumers on the market. If AMD and NV are even in performance, with NV winning everything else (software, heat, noise, intangible metrics) that means that a lot of people would just stick with nvidia. That's more or less how I see it. AMD performance is awesome. IMO, AMD has never had much of a problem in terms of performance, not recently anyway. They've been behind at times but not by so much to where they couldn't compete. Non performance metrics? Need work. They need to look at the big picture of a full and complete great user experience, and that encompasses a lot more than just performance. It isn't like a CPU that you just throw in and hey you're done. The reference cooler quality matters, the software matters, the new features that NV adds every couple of months....it's a big value add. My experience with nvidia surround / SLI has been it just worked with minimal hassle. 7970s? not so much. Sometimes worked, a LOT of times it was hassle. But the 290s are improved in that respect I suppose. Anyway AMD is taking baby steps, they need to do more. And if they do, i'll be more than happy as a consumer. I want more choices and I want more competition. Who doesn't?

kinda hard to compare if you don't own the hardware.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1455171/amd-r9-290-nvidia-gtx-780-ti-bench-off-first-wave-complete-with-graphs-specviewperf-added/20
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