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[Microsoft] Xbox One is getting DirectX 12 - Page 9

post #81 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by pratesh View Post

I just hope it supports more system calls like mantle. I know AMD has a lot banking on Mantle, but I think that unless Nvidia supported it in some way, it was kinda dead in the water. We'll see. thumb.gif

AMD doesn't have a thing banking on Mantle.

Their cards perform great with or without it.

Dice and AMD created it. It was dice's idea to begin with.
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post #82 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post

DX12 mean nothing. A low end card can have DX12 support and it will not mean anything.

Exactly. I don't get where some people think DX12 and the eSRAM will suddenly make the Xbox One overcome its many hardware and software limitations compared to the PS4...It's 50% slower in GPU speed, even with the eSRAM it has less bandwidth overall afaik (Although the eSRAM likely has lower latency to compensate) and because of how it runs 3 OS' at once (One base one, one media and one gaming one in VMs on the base one) there's a ~10% performance penalty from that too I believe. DX12 will be good for it and should help games look a little better but it won't make it that much faster and before anyone mentions Mantle, the Mantle style optimisations are mostly ones already done on consoles iirc.

People who are saying that DX12 could make the PS4 slower than the XBO may as well be saying "Update the R9 270X to DX12! It'll be faster than the R9 280X then!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDalton10 View Post


Actually DirectX12 is supposed to bring close to metal programming. If Microsoft really did have AMD reconfigure the GPU to support DX12, you could get a significant performance boost. Until more is released its anyone guess though.

On a side note, MS could release something like an Xbox 4k edition or something with GPU hardware changes.

Direct to Metal or even Close to Metal is something that would already be done on the console if not now, in a few years. How else does a 7900GT (PS3) get as good performance as it does? It's closer to a PC 8800 than a PC 7900. I doubt they'd do a 4k edition but since both major consoles are using x86 (Meaning legacy compatibility is a big thing...That's why with the right software you can run programs written for a 386 without any emulation or the like) it'd be possible with a faster CPU and faster GPU.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAr View Post

I thaught these custom gpu and CPU for Xbox one is special made which I thaught they have more power than people think

They do, however they also have more of a performance penalty than most people seem to remember...The gaming OS runs in a VM and likely has a ~10% performance penalty because of that...There's no way MS could regain the sheer amount of extra performance the PS4 has even with eSRAM and the cloud. They'd likely get within around 30% tops but even that's not likely, even with the eSRAM they have less total bandwidth than the PS4, there's not one particular area the XBO shines in that it could at least match or beat the PS4 in even if it lost everywhere else. (eg. AMD and heavily threaded software)
Quote:
Originally Posted by subyman View Post

Notice how MS scarified GPU power for eDRAM so they could use less expensive DDR3. Sony kept the full power of the GPU and spent more on high end RAM.

Sadly the main thing MS skimped on that affected the XBOs performance was the Kinect...That makes up half the cost of making an XBO. The worst bit is that it's pretty clear it's going to remain a gimmick, forcing it on everyone won't help anything especially since the Kinect sold enough to cover 1/3 of the X360s user base and still was a useless gimmick for the most part. The interesting thing is that with 2/3 of the 3D console generations, it's been the weakest to win (PS2 was slower than the Xbox and Gamecube, Wii was an overclocked Gamecube essentially) and that's not just changing, but completely reversing going by Sony's early lead and the Wii U barely selling at all.
    
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post #83 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane2207 View Post

I'm going to take a punt and guess you're heavily invested in the Xbox camp, and I'm happy for you, I hope you enjoy your system.

Back to your original statement though, you're essentially arguing that a 7790 with 8GB DDR3 (XO) is going to outperform a 7870 with 8GB of GDDR5 (PS4). 99.99% of OCN know that an entry level 7790 with limited bandwidth isn't going to beat a 7870 with ample bandwidth. No amount of overclocking or software magic is going to overcome actually having 50% more hardware and 100% more bandwidth. Also, the assumption could be made that any degree you can overclock the 7790 by, you could also overclock the 7870 by.

I'm not even sure why this would be up for discussion on OCN, the general forum user here is much more knowledgeable regarding hardware specs than your average Joe and can see that, at least on paper, this console generation is an absolute whitewash in favour of the PS4. DX12 isn't going to turn that around, especially as both systems are close to the metal to begin with.

See I'm in the Xbox One camp and I dont even argue the performance VS the PS4, I think the Xbox One has more power than people think however, but I'm not stupid enough to argue its a match for the PS4...

Basically my arguement is the Xbox One IS capable of 1080p60 gaming just fine (and has a few titles to prove it) and with intelligent resource usage is capable of some very good show...

And I think things like the Azure cloud computing (for dedicated servers and possible future AI improvements and possible dynamic world infastructure), the UI, the controller, and the overall media-centric non gaming features of it are definite points in its category... Its not all about the graphics on a console, I have a PC for that
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post #84 of 89
If the Xbox One is getting DX 12 support, does this mean that current GPUs will also get support?
post #85 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by brootalperry View Post

If the Xbox One is getting DX 12 support, does this mean that current GPUs will also get support?

They wouldn't really do that, AMD/NV would rather you buy brand new cards for the new version of Windows vs offering backwards support even if the hardware supports it. That's just smart business, so even if the Xbone gets it that doesn't really mean the GCN based cards out now will support it. The one thing we can be sure of is NO windows 7 support and probably Windows 8 and up vs keeping it Win 9 only . If only as to help push people to "upgrade" from 7 to 8.
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post #86 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSchlaf View Post

Shouldn't they be working on getting Mantle support. It is an AMD GPU after all.

DirectX is how Microsoft keeps people using Windows. It's the epitome of vendor lock in. Microsoft was probably coerced into making DX12 happen to try and stop bleeding from Mantle.

Mantle only works on Windows right now, but everything is contained in the driver. So, if AMD wants to bring Mantle to Linux, they just put Mantle in their Linux driver.

If AMD or a game developer wants to bring DirectX to Linux. Well, they can't officially since Microsoft owns it. They have to either create a wrapper, like Valve has done, or create an API compatibility layer (like WINE). But, if you've used any of those, you know they lag behind Windows by a significant margin.

The business purposes of DirectX are:

1. Lock people into using Windows instead of migrating to Linux/OSX/BSD/etc if they want to play AAA games
2. Encourage people to upgrade to newer versions of Windows

The second one has actually happened before. When Windows Vista came out, Microsoft said no to DX10 on Windows XP. There were hacks to make DX10 work on XP, so it wasn't impossible. However Microsoft didn't bring DX10 to Windows XP to try and get people to upgrade to Windows Vista.

Low and behold, Microsoft is in a similar situation, where there's a large part of the market who is clinging to the old version of Windows and who are rejecting the new version.

I expect Microsoft to do the same thing with DX 12. I expect to see features like better multi-core scaling and other things that come from Mantle. And it will be used as a business tool by only being released on Windows 8 or 9 in an effort to try and get people to leave Windows 7.

It is almost exactly the same situation as the jump from XP to Vista.

However, I don't think Microsoft has completely had everything planned. From the looks of how Xbone launched, it seemed like they thought they could just get away with a multi-media device that plays games.

Things kind of evolved, Mantle dropped, and Microsoft felt threatened to have a competing API to DX being adopted by a very large game studio's primary engine being used in pretty much every major game that publisher will release.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brootalperry View Post

If the Xbox One is getting DX 12 support, does this mean that current GPUs will also get support?

Yes, it's possible. You can make APIs and software stacks run on hardware that it wasn't designed for. DX versions just specify which features a card should support.

I would imagine that Microsoft would want to bring DX12 to as much hardware as possible if they are going to use it as a business tool to coerce people into upgrading from Windows 7. That would mean more potential people to buy an upgrade (or at least switch and hopefully start saying nice things about it to those who are less educated on technology).
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post #87 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkboy View Post

They wouldn't really do that, AMD/NV would rather you buy brand new cards for the new version of Windows vs offering backwards support even if the hardware supports it. That's just smart business, so even if the Xbone gets it that doesn't really mean the GCN based cards out now will support it. The one thing we can be sure of is NO windows 7 support and probably Windows 8 and up vs keeping it Win 9 only . If only as to help push people to "upgrade" from 7 to 8.

That kinda sucks for those that just bought the current video cards (on both sides), considering they're just a year old.
The only thing I'm really hoping for with DX 12 is better performance.
post #88 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by brootalperry View Post

That kinda sucks for those that just bought the current video cards (on both sides), considering they're just a year old.
The only thing I'm really hoping for with DX 12 is better performance.

The way I see it, there ARE Mantle cards out right now, There are NOT DX12 cards out right now if thats the case

Couple that with Microsoft most likely forcing people to AT LEAST Windows 8 to use it instead of also offering it for 7 and Mantle definitely will have an edge for a lot of people

Couple that with SteamOS and Steamboxes gaining support, the fact Mantle can be ported to Linux relatively simply (and would also make future Linux ports a piece of cake for any game based on a Mantle-compatable engine) and AMD Mantle looks poised to take the cake here and beat Microsoft in the face with it

Simply put, Can Microsoft afford to pull the locking in stuff this time around now that theres a fairly strong option on the market in the form of Mantle? Will MS pull a dick move and somehow sabotage the performance of Mantle by leveraging their market position with content creators? Who knows.

What I do know is I like the competition! Keeps everything interesting and more importantly, honest
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post #89 of 89
Looking forward to seeing results
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