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post #31 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdocod View Post

On the Asus board....

Call or contact whomever you are ordering it from and have them make sure the board has BIOS version 1004 or later installed. If it doesn't, it might not recognize the E3. I like the Asus board of the options there best as well however, one advantage to the Gigabyte boards would be that they have E3 support going all the way back to initial release.


Without knowing the bit-rate of the footage that will be edited and the anticipated size of the projects there isn't any way to advise on drive options.

Thank you for the heads up on the BIOS!

As for the RAID, in the past I used to work with uncompressed AVIs quite a bit in After Effects, and they were then transferred over to Premiere Pro. My final output usually had a bit rate of 32 bps. My WD Black had a hard time keeping up. What if we use that as a baseline assumption. How would you suggest structuring a RAID for that type of work?
post #32 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsc1973 View Post

I guess that's true, if you're tone deaf.

Yeah there's a HUGE difference in the audio quality from my ASUS Xonar and the audio from most other computers I know of. When I first bought it I felt like I was going overboard, but now I totally feel like it has been worth it.
Quote:
For 99 percent of people, there isn't any. Home Premium is good enough.

Thank you for confirming that!
post #33 of 45
A modern 1TB/platter drive should be good for about 1,600,000,000bps read/write speeds on the outer rim. 32 bits per second isn't enough to support any media. That would be like an audio file with a sample rate of 4hz and 4 bits per sample only capable of recording sub-sonic square waves.


As an amateur sound-reinforcement engineer who has been studying and implementing this stuff for over a decade, I have garnered no evidence to support that on-board audio on a modern motherboard represents a meaningful piece of the distortion puzzle in a complete working system with external amplification UNLESS we are dealing with abnormally low distortion devices down-stream that have ample dynamic range available. The M40 "home studio monitors" don't apply.

Implying that I must be "tone deaf" is insulting to tone deaf people, as even tone deaf people can run simulations, do math, research and use measurement equipment. In this case, we're dealing with a pair of internally amplified "monitors" at a price point of ~$100 for the pair. These speakers can not reveal the difference (to human ears) between an on-board Realtek ALC892 and a $200 sound card. The amplification in the little M40 speakers have a S/N rating of 90db. Even on-board sound is good for up to ~100d+dB S/N in some cases. The alc892 should be good for at least 95dB S/N or better (it measures better in many implementations). This means that the on-board audio is still only going to represent ~1/4 of the noise on the final output. The differences in distortion figures would be even more dramatic.

If one were really concerned about it, there are motherboards with the ALC898 good for up to ~110dB S/N. (like the GIGABYTE G1.Sniper B5 for ~$100)

With similar cost to implement, onboard audio connected to a set of BX5 monitors (~$300), or a $200 sound card connected to M40's (combined cost ~$300), the BX5 option will be better in every measurable metric; Distortion, dynamic reach, bandwidth, final S/N etc etc. I wouldn't even begin to entertain the idea of a sound card upgrade until the devices down-stream had dynamic capabilities at the listening position of ~105dB from any channel without clipping or significant distortion.

Look carefully, and you can often get a pair of brand new BX5's for ~$200. Spending the $200 on the sound card here, would be like spending $200 on titanium lug nuts to save 1lb while still carrying around a trunk full of junk.

There's more mysticism in "audio" than any other field of consumer electronics that I am aware of. A lot of the mysticism stems from human "flaws" in the way we process sound information. Another problem is the fact that it is basically impossible to get true side-by-side comparisons of anything under true apples to apples conditions. Another is simple human nature, which is rebellious towards obvious answers and often seeks out mystical by-passes for reasons that I have never understood.

Sounding "better" doesn't always mean lower distortion. If you've ever heard a good pair of studio monitors in a sound deadened room that have been properly EQed flat (compensating for boundary reinforcement), you'd probably have nothing nice to say about them as they will typically sound dull and lifeless. Most hifi speakers are actually far from having a flat response as that is not the goal.

If we were talking about headphones then everything changes. Headphones are not a low-current-dominantly-resistive load. Headphones draw far more current than the pre-amp and present a load that has varying degrees of reactance at different frequencies. With a beefy set of cans presenting these more challenging loads, differences DO begin to emerge between various sources. Though I would argue that these days, even many motherboards have this area nailed down quite well.
Edited by mdocod - 3/21/14 at 5:23pm
     
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post #34 of 45
Thread Starter 
Sorry, that was a typo. I meant 32 Mbps.

Though that should have been blindingly obvious to anyone with even a basic knowledge of video editing since it's pretty standard for 1080p H.264.

And of course I also referred to uncompressed AVIs.

Furthermore, as a conservatory-trained musician with a highly trained ear I'm just going to assume all you do is look at numbers and never actually listen to audio.

Thank you very much for your assistance.
Edited by MattLP - 3/22/14 at 8:37am
post #35 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattLP View Post

Furthermore, as a conservatory-trained musician with a highly trained ear I'm just going to assume all you do is look at numbers and never actually listen to audio.
When it comes to audio, that's all that matters. I'm no musician, and I don't care one penny for SNR specs. I just love my music. But I know what sounds right to me and what doesn't, and what's acceptable and what isn't.

I had the AV40's a few years ago, after switching away from a set of ordinary "computer" speakers. The AV40's were good enough to that I pretty much converted to all-digital music and started using my PC for everyday listening. But they kicked the bucket a week out of warranty (they had a nasty habit of doing that to early adopters...sigh), and I had to switch back to the old computer speakers for a little while. And they sucked!

Eventually, I got what I considered better results when I bought a pair of old Japan-made Realistic 7W's, opened them up and replaced the ancient electrolytic 4.7uF cap with a modern film 4.7 and a .01uF bypass, and hooked them up to a Lepai 2020+ that I also opened up and upgraded a few caps on, and boosted the power. I'd be willing to bet that the AV40's still have better actual specs, but the new setup sounds better to me. The first time my girlfriend came here and heard it, she was impressed--and she's listened to sound systems that cost thousands of dollars. (Nice when you can impress a female with stuff like that...LOL)

I've run the AV40's and the Minimus 7's on both onboard and on an Xonar DG, and you'd better believe I can tell the difference. I could tell the difference between onboard and a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz on regular computer speakers a dozen years ago. Maybe the technical specs say there's no difference, but I'll trust what my ears tell me.

And it's not disrespectful to anyone to say that a tone-deaf person can't perceive differences in sound quality. That's just stating facts. They can't. The world is so effing PC these days that it makes me want to vomit.
     
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post #36 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsc1973 View Post

I can't believe someone actually recommended a 9590 for professional graphics work. Yes, it will make some hay in video editing, but it's a factory overclock. No one who's doing professional work wants to be dealing with something like that; it would be a potential time bomb waiting to go off.

If you're doing professional work and go AMD, either stick with the tried-and-true, guaranteed reliable FX-8350 or get an Opteron. But really, you're better off with an Intel solution.
I guess that's true, if you're tone deaf.
For 99 percent of people, there isn't any. Home Premium is good enough.

As I have said several times, none of those specs are anywhere close to a true professional workstation. I would highly encourage the OP to advise their client they can't have a budget anywhere near that low and do that sort of work. Now, if they are just wanting to play around, do home videos and such then sure. But getting into anything Adobe on a serious basis requires a LOT better Xeon CPUs and an nVidia graphics card like the Titan, 790 (when available), or workstation models.

The advantage to Windows 7 Pro or Ultimate is you can go past 16GB of memory ONLY with those 2 versions. I can't remember the last time I used less than 32GB for my main system.

Also, as I mentioned too if the OP took the advice, do NOT go with RAID 0. Instead, invest in a real good 500GB or better SSD for speed. You want that not just for the OS and apps, but saving LARGE video files. Then, you can move those large files off the SSD to a "data" drive. For backup and redundancy, you should follow my advice on the Drobo if that's what they want for backup or data protection. It would replace your data drives too since you can use it for such needs.

All the specs the OP has chosen is a very basic, consumer level, general purpose type of system. It's still a strange parts list that is all over the place and no where close to a workstation. The monitor I use alone is half the budget you are working with. Again, you simply can't do professional work or call it that on such a low budget. What's puzzling is why they have this low income to work with if this is part of their work they get paid for?
Edited by HiTekJeff - 3/22/14 at 9:51am
post #37 of 45
We're trying to give the OP the best advice we can within the limitations he specified. If that's what the budget is, that's what the budget is. The fact that you can do much better if you spend more money is something we're all well aware of, and I'm sure the OP is too. But it's not germane to the discussion. The budget is $3,000, and the task is to make the best video editing system you can for $3,000.

If the person using the system ever wants to go beyond 16GB of memory, then he can buy an upgrade from MS that will allow him to move up to Win 7 Pro. As long as he's at 16, then Win7 HP is enough. I said Home Premium was good enough for 99 percent of users. You're in the other one percent, so my comment doesn't apply to you.
     
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post #38 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattLP View Post

Sorry, that was a typo. I meant 32 Mbps.

Though that should have been blindingly obvious to anyone with even a basic knowledge of video editing since it's pretty standard for 1080p H.264.

3.2Gb/s and 3.2Mb/s, or 32MB/s, or 320Mb/s. All possible. No way for me to guess, and the differences would be huge. Recording options are VAST these days. There are some common standards but good video recorders have lots of hardware compression modes. Even decent "pro-sumer" cams with built in recording tend to have a variety of recording options.

I do apologies for being so literal in my previous response on the matter. I can understand why that would be frustrating. However, I think you're holding me to an unreasonable expectation here. Anyone with "basic" knowledge, might just assume 32Mbps, but I can't assume that, as every bitrate I've ever seen used or worked with myself hasn't been 32Mbps. That's just one possibility in a very long list of them.

32Mbps can be edited on a tablet or a laptop or almost any hard drives made in the last 10 years without a serious drive related holdup. The fact that you said you had a HD bottleneck when working with it points to something far greater than 32Mbps. Mechy drives at their WORST (like the center of the spindle on a low rpm laptop drive) are good for ~300-400Mbps these days.

3.2Gbps (4K RAW 10-bit) requires SSDs or mechanical RAID.

If you were having a playback or bottleneck issue working with 32Mbps footage on a machine, then it would be worth investigation into where that holdup was, so as to avoid it in a future projects.
Quote:
And of course I also referred to uncompressed AVIs.

AVI is a container type. The contents could vary wildly. Uncompressed 720P? 4K? 24FPS? 300FPS? Color depth? It's not that simple.

Quote:
Furthermore, as a conservatory-trained musician with a highly trained ear I'm just going to assume all you do is look at numbers and never actually listen to audio.

Thank you very much for your assistance.

There are $30 sound cards that will get you 80% of the way to the excellence offered by the $200 sound card, there are $100-170 motherboards with on-board sound that will do the same.

There was a time that I believed that a wonderful amplifier could "solve" the woes of any poorly designed speaker because I gave into the mysticism of it rather than observed the science of it. I think you're making the same mistakes. I have nothing against premium audio gear as my ears are hypersensitive to distortion, noise, etc. Gives me a headache. I love nice audio gear; but found out a long time ago, that as is the case with most consumer electronics, the incremental steps of quality on the high end have logarithmic price increases. It doesn't make sense to step into any of the logarithmic price points on a single component of a system and then surround it with ordinary boom box grade flea market trash. Common sense tells me that the same money spread out buys a better result. A pair of amplified monitors for $100 can only be so good. I'm saying, they aren't good enough to justify a $200 sound card. If your ears tell you something different, then that is just proof of the point I was making about the human factors involved. We are all subject to human error and placebo effect.

Here's what $45 worth of crossover components looks like: Hint: This still doesn't result in an "ideal" crossover. It is still flawed in many ways. Phase tracking and reactance are only mediocre in this design (it's been through the ringer of complex simulation and I haven't found a great solution yet).


Point I'm making is that, a mediocre 2-way passive crossover that actually solves some of the major hurdles like baffle step loss (but not all of the little ones), costs about $45 in components to make. Some corners could be cut and this could be done for $25 instead without too many losses. That said, you're not going to find even $20 worth of crossover components in a $50 amplified monitor.

On these speakers, onboard sound wouldn't be particularly great because they have the dynamic capabilities to expose the flaws. For the same reason I wouldn't spend $200 on a sound card to power a $100 pair of amplified monitors, I wouldn't take the $40 worth of amplification out of those cheap monitors and use it to power these speakers. It's a recipe that dissolves the areas of advantage. Like spending $300 on an X79 motherboard, and then failing to put the CPU that gives that platform the advantage on it (the 6 core). When we spend our own money, we can do whatever novel thing we desire regardless, when we're spending other peoples money, practical value and common sense should be front stage.
Edited by mdocod - 3/22/14 at 12:30pm
     
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post #39 of 45
Thread Starter 


I'm posting this image as an example of the output settings for a typical uncompressed AVI file that I tend to work with. The bottleneck occurs with the uncompressed video, not the 32 Mbps video.

When working with this type of file in either Premiere Pro or After Effects, my 7,200RPM WD Black is not able to keep up.

I'd like to figure out how to configure the most appropriate RAID to handle this kind of work load without lag issues.
Edited by MattLP - 3/22/14 at 1:30pm
post #40 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsc1973 View Post

We're trying to give the OP the best advice we can within the limitations he specified. If that's what the budget is, that's what the budget is. The fact that you can do much better if you spend more money is something we're all well aware of, and I'm sure the OP is too. But it's not germane to the discussion. The budget is $3,000, and the task is to make the best video editing system you can for $3,000.

If the person using the system ever wants to go beyond 16GB of memory, then he can buy an upgrade from MS that will allow him to move up to Win 7 Pro. As long as he's at 16, then Win7 HP is enough. I said Home Premium was good enough for 99 percent of users. You're in the other one percent, so my comment doesn't apply to you.

Thank you for making this point. I'd love to be able to build a more ideal professional workstation with the dual-xeons, quadro, loads of memory, etc etc etc... but $3,000 is the budget constraint.

With that said, I've really enjoyed HiTekJeff's posts and learned quite a bit from them. While I can't fully incorporate his suggestions into this build, there may be future opportunities and I'll keep all this information as a reference. I also passed on the information he provided about monitor calibration to the end-user of this system. smile.gif
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