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$600 Gaming Budget Build for a relative - Page 2

post #11 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by AIpha View Post

Thanks for the replies all, I originally had the 750ti in the build, but took it out once I went over $600. He said if it is a worthy upgrade, he'll get it.

I like that build Alanin, slightly more expensive in terms of mobo/cpu. But better performance as well. I did some reading and read that the 6300 is a great buy for the value, but with $15 off the 4430, I'm liking that Intel build though.

How reliable is 'TEAM" Ram? I've always gone with G. Skill and had great luck.

I've recently bought some "TEAM" RAM and it's roughly the same quality as G.Skill in my opinion.

If you want some tried and true RAM from them, the vulcan series is very solid for just a dollar more, and the only bad rating it has is from someone praising the product.

RAM($70) - Team Vulcan 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 2133
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820313404
My Rig
(5 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
A8-5600k BIOSTAR Hi-Fi A85S3 FM2 HD 7560D Integrated GPU Team Vulcan 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3 1600 
Hard Drive
TOSHIBA P300 HDWD110XZSTA 1TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache 
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My Rig
(5 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
A8-5600k BIOSTAR Hi-Fi A85S3 FM2 HD 7560D Integrated GPU Team Vulcan 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3 1600 
Hard Drive
TOSHIBA P300 HDWD110XZSTA 1TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache 
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post #12 of 15
The GTX650 (non-Ti) only has 384 kepler cuda shaders. It's slower than the GTX460-768MB edition in MY computer (a lower-middle tier GPU from ~3.5 years ago). IMO the GTX650, like the HD7750 and R7 250 that it performs like, are really in that 1+ HTPC class of GPU, where you would normally pick the HD7730 or R7 240 or GT640, but due to availability or pricing, the "step up" made sense and offers the peace of mind that the machine could play games at low settings if it had to. This is not a HTPC build that stumbled across a GPU upgrade in the component selection phase because the price wasn't much different, this is a gaming machine that should have a respectable GPU in it!

The GPU really should be the focus of a budget gaming machine. TRY to improve on this. The Ti edition with a 1GB frame buffer would be far better, as it has DOUBLE the shaders. Neither card will benefit from more than 1GB of VRAM, as the texture quality required to fill more than 1GB is far beyond what these cards could draw fast enough to achieve playable framerates anyway. With realistic settings tuned to get good performance from these cards, 1GB is plenty. It takes ~1000 keplar cuda shaders to have enough draw performance to really start to take advantage of more than 1GB of VRAM. The GTX660 is a pretty good match to it's "1.5GB" VRAM configuration. (I know it has 2GB, but it really only has access to 1.5GB at full speed, so for all intents and purposes it is a 1.5GB frame buffer).


The FX-6300 is a very good value CPU for gaming, however, that only holds true IF it is overclocked. If you leave that capability un-tapped, then there are better ways to spend that money on the intel side IMO. The i3-4130 actually performs better than the FX-6300 in most games when compared stock-vs-stock. There's only a handful of games that can leverage enough parallelism to give the FX-6300 the edge, and in the titles that do, the margins are slim (usually less than 10-15%). On the other hand, in the titles that the FX-6300 is at its worse, the margins are often wide. In game titles that favor the per-core performance (many), you can expect to see the i3 perform 20-40% better than the stock clocked FX-6300.

On the other hand, If you clock the FX-6300 to 4.8-5.0+ghz, it will trade blows with an i5-4440 in gaming. At that clock speed, those games that the intel chips had large margins on before, will narrow to ~10-20%, and in games that can leverage more parallelism, the FX chip will pull ahead by 10-20%. As it would turn out, the cost to implement an i5-4440 on a cheap B85 board using the OEM HSF, is pretty similar to the cost to implement an FX-6300+UD3P+aftermarket HSF. Either way is awesome and the performance differences aren't significant enough in either direction to matter much on a system with a middle tier or lower GPU anyway. One solution requires performance tuning, the other does not. Some people like the novelty of the process of performance tuning a machine, some would rather it just work out of the box.

The way I see it, the FX-6300 doesn't become competitive until you take advantage of it's overclocking headroom. Most FX-6300's seem to be good overclocking chips. Haven't seen many people that have had one that wouldn't do 4.0ghz on less than 1.20V, and most that will do this can hit 5ghz on ~1.45V or less provided it is sitting on a motherboard with enough clean stable tightly regulated power available. Power requirements of the chip at 5ghz are typically ~160-180W. There are several CPU coolers in the ~$50 range that can maintain this sort of dissipation while keeping temps in check. Motherboard selection is key. The M5A97 LE R2.0 is a no-go for this power level. I recommend the GA-970A-UD3P.

If you're not going to overclock the FX-6300, get the i3-4130 or i5-4440.


I still question "Team" RAM as I keep hearing tidbits about it being single rank (using less higher capacity ICs on one side of the DIMM, instead of populating both sides). If these rumors are true, then that would detract from performance compared to traditional DIMMs as rank interleaving would not work on such a DIMM (unless multiples of them were installed on the same channel).

Performance scaling is generally pretty minimal with higher end memory especially on a mid to lower tier CPU, and even less when the system will be bottle-necked on a lower tier GPU most of the time anyway. Only buy faster RAM if there is little to no price difference for a build at this budget.


Here's how to do the AMD build:

CPU: AMD FX-6300 3.5GHz 6-Core Processor ($109.99 @ Newegg or Amazon)
For now the build will have to get by on the stock cooler. You can lock most FX-6300s to about 1.20V and they will run stable at 3.8-4.1ghz without much trouble, this is usually doable on the stock cooler. Disable Turbo, but leave APM enabled and it will keep thermals in check under parallel workloads on the weak CPU cooler with mild throttling if necessary. Upgrade to aftermarket cooling at a later date to improve CPU performance further. (~5ghz).

Motherboard + Memory Combo: Gigabyte GA-970A-UD3P + Kingston Black 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 ($158 @ Newegg)
This motherboard has no trouble providing the power required to run the FX-6300@5ghz. Most other 970 chipset boards won't.

Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($59.99 @ Newegg or Amazon)

Video Card: Asus GeForce GTX 660 2GB Video Card ($169.99 @ NCIX US)
This is 2-3X faster than the GTX650, depending on settings/resolution.

Case + Power Supply combo: Rosewill Challenger-U3 + Capstone 450W 80+ Gold Certified Semi-Modular ($105 @ Newegg)

Optical Drive: Lite-On IHAS324-07 DVD/CD Writer ($19.99 @ Newegg)

Total: $643 Shipped, $623 after 1 MIR (GPU).

(Generated by PCPartPicker, edited by mdocod 2014-03-10 22:49 EDT-0400)


Here's the Intel alternate:

CPU: Intel Core i3-4330 3.5GHz Dual-Core Processor ($134.98 @ SuperBiiz)

Motherboard + PSU Combo: Gigabyte GA-B85M-D3H + Capstone 450W 80+ Gold Certified Semi-Modular ($120 @ Newegg)

Memory: Crucial Ballistix Sport 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($74.99 @ Newegg)

Storage: Western Digital Caviar Blue 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($59.99 @ Newegg)

Video Card: Asus GeForce GTX 660 2GB Video Card ($169.99 @ NCIX US)

Case: Cougar Spike MicroATX Mini Tower Case ($34.99 @ TigerDirect)

Optical Drive: LG GH24NSB0 DVD/CD Writer ($17.99 @ TigerDirect)

Total: $633 Shipped, $613 after MIR (GPU).

(Generated by PCPartPicker, edited by mdocod 2014-03-10 23:22 EDT-0400)
     
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8350 990X EVO R2.0 Sparkle GTX460 768MB ballistix tactical 2 x 8GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Toshiiba THNSNH 256GB Enterprise RE3 1TB Asus BD combo drive Artic A30 
OSMonitorMonitorMonitor
Manjaro Linux Samsung 21.5" LCD E2009WFP E2009WFP 
PowerCase
Seasonic G 550W Modular Fractal Design Core 3500 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-6300, 4.7 GHZ@1.43V GA-970A-UD3P GTX 460 768MB Mixed DIMMs. 2x4GB + 2x8GB @ 1600-8-8-8 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Toshiba THNSNH 19nm 256GB 1TB Spinpoint F3 WD RE3 1TB WD RE3 1TB 
Optical DriveCoolingOSOS
yes CM Seidon 120V SolydK OpenSuse 13.1 
OSOSMonitorMonitor
Linux Mint 9-32 bit // Linux Mint 17-64 bit  Manjaro Xfce Samsung 21.5" HannsG 21.5" sideways! 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Sticky ATNG Rosewill Green 630W NZXT Gamma Basic Microsoft corded 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
A10-6800k 4.8GHZ @ 1.375V, 1.2GHZ iGPU Gigabyte GA-F2A85XN-WIFI HD8670D Ripjaws 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Seagate ST1000DM003 Asus BC-12B1ST/BLK/B/AS Zalman CNPS5X Linux Mint 15 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
LG IPS224V-PN Logitec K360 FSP 400W Aurum S 80+ gold Prodigy 
Mouse
logitec M235 
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8350 990X EVO R2.0 Sparkle GTX460 768MB ballistix tactical 2 x 8GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Toshiiba THNSNH 256GB Enterprise RE3 1TB Asus BD combo drive Artic A30 
OSMonitorMonitorMonitor
Manjaro Linux Samsung 21.5" LCD E2009WFP E2009WFP 
PowerCase
Seasonic G 550W Modular Fractal Design Core 3500 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-6300, 4.7 GHZ@1.43V GA-970A-UD3P GTX 460 768MB Mixed DIMMs. 2x4GB + 2x8GB @ 1600-8-8-8 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Toshiba THNSNH 19nm 256GB 1TB Spinpoint F3 WD RE3 1TB WD RE3 1TB 
Optical DriveCoolingOSOS
yes CM Seidon 120V SolydK OpenSuse 13.1 
OSOSMonitorMonitor
Linux Mint 9-32 bit // Linux Mint 17-64 bit  Manjaro Xfce Samsung 21.5" HannsG 21.5" sideways! 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Sticky ATNG Rosewill Green 630W NZXT Gamma Basic Microsoft corded 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
A10-6800k 4.8GHZ @ 1.375V, 1.2GHZ iGPU Gigabyte GA-F2A85XN-WIFI HD8670D Ripjaws 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Seagate ST1000DM003 Asus BC-12B1ST/BLK/B/AS Zalman CNPS5X Linux Mint 15 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
LG IPS224V-PN Logitec K360 FSP 400W Aurum S 80+ gold Prodigy 
Mouse
logitec M235 
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post #13 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdocod View Post



I still question "Team" RAM as I keep hearing tidbits about it being single rank (using less higher capacity ICs on one side of the DIMM, instead of populating both sides). If these rumors are true, then that would detract from performance compared to traditional DIMMs as rank interleaving would not work on such a DIMM (unless multiples of them were installed on the same channel).

Performance scaling is generally pretty minimal with higher end memory especially on a mid to lower tier CPU, and even less when the system will be bottle-necked on a lower tier GPU most of the time anyway. Only buy faster RAM if there is little to no price difference for a build at this budget.

If I recall the performance difference between single rank, and dual rank is ~1% with DDR3, but if you want I can pull my Vulcan RAM out and check it, to make sure.
My Rig
(5 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
A8-5600k BIOSTAR Hi-Fi A85S3 FM2 HD 7560D Integrated GPU Team Vulcan 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3 1600 
Hard Drive
TOSHIBA P300 HDWD110XZSTA 1TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache 
  hide details  
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My Rig
(5 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
A8-5600k BIOSTAR Hi-Fi A85S3 FM2 HD 7560D Integrated GPU Team Vulcan 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3 1600 
Hard Drive
TOSHIBA P300 HDWD110XZSTA 1TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache 
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post #14 of 15
 
Thuban Powah!
(14 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Xeon X5650 Asus P6X58D-E Sapphire HD 7950 G.Skill Trident-X 2600 CL10 
Hard DriveCoolingPowerCase
Samsung 840 pro Bong cooler / RASA waterblock Rosewill Capstone Gold 750 None 
MouseMouse PadAudio
cheap! Newegg box panel ibeats with onboard. 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Phenom II X6 1075T w/2 cores locked @ 4.2+ M4a89GTD-Pro XFX Radeon HD 5870 8gb Samsung ddr3 1600 11-11-11-28@ 8-8-8-24 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
OCZ Agility2 40gb WD Blue 500GB Lite-On RASA waterblock 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows & Linux Samsung 1080p 2 ms Dell Thermaltake TR2-800 
CaseMouse
Cooler Master Elite 330 (was) cheap 
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Thuban Powah!
(14 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Xeon X5650 Asus P6X58D-E Sapphire HD 7950 G.Skill Trident-X 2600 CL10 
Hard DriveCoolingPowerCase
Samsung 840 pro Bong cooler / RASA waterblock Rosewill Capstone Gold 750 None 
MouseMouse PadAudio
cheap! Newegg box panel ibeats with onboard. 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Phenom II X6 1075T w/2 cores locked @ 4.2+ M4a89GTD-Pro XFX Radeon HD 5870 8gb Samsung ddr3 1600 11-11-11-28@ 8-8-8-24 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
OCZ Agility2 40gb WD Blue 500GB Lite-On RASA waterblock 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows & Linux Samsung 1080p 2 ms Dell Thermaltake TR2-800 
CaseMouse
Cooler Master Elite 330 (was) cheap 
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post #15 of 15
Constructive criticism: (I hope)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmuckley View Post

CPU http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116773 $120

Haswell i3's are basically the same price as Ivy and perform ~10-20% better depending on which model vs which model.

This is a garbage class motherboard based on an OLD chipset. The layout has problems: The GPU will cover at least 1, and possibly 2 of the SATA ports. It only has SATA II, which will limit burst rates on the mechy drive and hurt potential performance of the machine if it is upgraded to an SSD. (though it may be impossible to even have 3 drives plugged into this board with a GPU installed). Very limited audio in/out, no USB 3.0, only 4 USB 2.0 ports.

The "value cliff" for motherboards usually happens right around $65-75. Dropping below this point on a "new" board is usually pointless unless it's actually a "deal" of some sort. A $50 used motherboard from 3 years ago will have much better quality/features than this Biostar H61 board. There's nothing "nice" about paying "new" prices for something this old/awful.

(I payed $50 for a GA-970A-UD3P, hmmmm, by that standard, the ole H61 board is worth $10 IMO)

Value cliff problem. Saving $5 here cuts drive performance by 35% and cuts the size in half. This drive hurts the value of the build compared to just spending the $60 on a modern single platter 1TB drive with 4X the cache.

I don't know how you would install either of the GPUs you've suggested into this case without using a hack saw on the drive cage. Furthermore, most of the world is trying to get rid of cases like this. You could post a craigslist add requesting a "free old broken computer for salvage" and probably have 5 responses within a day of people wanting to get rid of some old gateway/HP/dell junker from 10 years ago. Any of them will offer an equally lousy platform to build a computer inside of.

These are the sort of cases we built computers in 10-15 years ago, when we didn't know any better. There's no reason to PAY anyone for this sort of punishment. It's available for free in the dumpster around the corner or on the curbside of the local used PC hardware store that can't even give it away. Expect bleeding, frustration, aggravation, etc.
Quote:
..and that leaves the GPU wink.gif

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125443

or

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202087

The 256-bit bus is a huge deal..well..192-bit with Nvidia..

The GTX660 will bottleneck on the memory bus more often, while the HD7850 will bottleneck on it's shaders/TMUs more often. FYI: The HD7850 only has 7% more memory bandwidth than the GTX660. The GTX660 has ~40% higher shader/texture-mapping performance. -and it shows- In most comparisons, the GTX660 is dancing with the HD7870.

The HD7850 would have to be quite a bit cheaper to be a reasonable value IMO.
Edited by mdocod - 3/10/14 at 10:34pm
     
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8350 990X EVO R2.0 Sparkle GTX460 768MB ballistix tactical 2 x 8GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Toshiiba THNSNH 256GB Enterprise RE3 1TB Asus BD combo drive Artic A30 
OSMonitorMonitorMonitor
Manjaro Linux Samsung 21.5" LCD E2009WFP E2009WFP 
PowerCase
Seasonic G 550W Modular Fractal Design Core 3500 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-6300, 4.7 GHZ@1.43V GA-970A-UD3P GTX 460 768MB Mixed DIMMs. 2x4GB + 2x8GB @ 1600-8-8-8 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Toshiba THNSNH 19nm 256GB 1TB Spinpoint F3 WD RE3 1TB WD RE3 1TB 
Optical DriveCoolingOSOS
yes CM Seidon 120V SolydK OpenSuse 13.1 
OSOSMonitorMonitor
Linux Mint 9-32 bit // Linux Mint 17-64 bit  Manjaro Xfce Samsung 21.5" HannsG 21.5" sideways! 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Sticky ATNG Rosewill Green 630W NZXT Gamma Basic Microsoft corded 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
A10-6800k 4.8GHZ @ 1.375V, 1.2GHZ iGPU Gigabyte GA-F2A85XN-WIFI HD8670D Ripjaws 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Seagate ST1000DM003 Asus BC-12B1ST/BLK/B/AS Zalman CNPS5X Linux Mint 15 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
LG IPS224V-PN Logitec K360 FSP 400W Aurum S 80+ gold Prodigy 
Mouse
logitec M235 
  hide details  
Reply
     
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8350 990X EVO R2.0 Sparkle GTX460 768MB ballistix tactical 2 x 8GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Toshiiba THNSNH 256GB Enterprise RE3 1TB Asus BD combo drive Artic A30 
OSMonitorMonitorMonitor
Manjaro Linux Samsung 21.5" LCD E2009WFP E2009WFP 
PowerCase
Seasonic G 550W Modular Fractal Design Core 3500 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-6300, 4.7 GHZ@1.43V GA-970A-UD3P GTX 460 768MB Mixed DIMMs. 2x4GB + 2x8GB @ 1600-8-8-8 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Toshiba THNSNH 19nm 256GB 1TB Spinpoint F3 WD RE3 1TB WD RE3 1TB 
Optical DriveCoolingOSOS
yes CM Seidon 120V SolydK OpenSuse 13.1 
OSOSMonitorMonitor
Linux Mint 9-32 bit // Linux Mint 17-64 bit  Manjaro Xfce Samsung 21.5" HannsG 21.5" sideways! 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Sticky ATNG Rosewill Green 630W NZXT Gamma Basic Microsoft corded 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
A10-6800k 4.8GHZ @ 1.375V, 1.2GHZ iGPU Gigabyte GA-F2A85XN-WIFI HD8670D Ripjaws 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Seagate ST1000DM003 Asus BC-12B1ST/BLK/B/AS Zalman CNPS5X Linux Mint 15 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
LG IPS224V-PN Logitec K360 FSP 400W Aurum S 80+ gold Prodigy 
Mouse
logitec M235 
  hide details  
Reply
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