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post #21 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by PepeLapiu View Post

Here are some of yhe improvements over the Touch, which I also own.
- 6 more watts per channel.
- selectable lower and upper temperature limits.
- option to set each channel as fans, pump, or flow.
- reported ticking or humming sound by some with the Touch appears to have been fixed on the CW.
- from videos I have seen, I find the GUI easier to use and navigate.

To me, the CW611 promises to be THE best controller..... for the money anyways. I can't justify the extra 2-300$ the Aquaero 6 would cost just for those bells and whistles.
Correction. You can't select lower and upper temps limits. Just lower and upper fan speeds.
My understanding is that you select your lower temps limit and the upper temps limit is automatically 10° C above your lower temps limit.

Also unlike the Touch, the CW gradually increases the fan speed in steps. A feature sourly lacking with the Touch.
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post #22 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackNaylorPE View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Try Running RoG Real bench Open CL test and watch your voltages..... if you are under Adaptive control, I expect you will exceed 1.5 volts.
Deja Vu all over again smile.gif Again, your reasoning is perfectly logical and well thought out ..... but there are different ways of looking at the issue and under the different scenarios, the best solution may vary. This is mainly due to the following:

-High end GPUs produce more than twice the heat of CPUs so in a twin GFX system, you are looking at a 4.5 to 1.0 ratio of heat produced. They can in no way therefore be considered equal contributors to the heat issue.
-In a WC loop, it's rare to see a GPU hit 50C .... 30C below where we start being concerned. OTOH, CPUs oft hit 75, 80C or more, well into the area which we get concerned.

1. First off, PWM is not relevant to the issue of temp control / fan speeds. Here's why .... if instead of using your CPU or CPU_OPT header which are PWM, you used the 3 or 4 pin MoBo Headers (These are variable voltage control and respond to the same CPU Temp criteria), how would things change with respect to the fans ? Nothing changes with regard to speed control. If you stop using PWM but your fans are still responding to CPU via voltage control signal, eliminating PWM won't change anything. There are some fans that have a particular noise to them but a) the easy solution is just avoiding them, b) you can control 3 pin voltage controlled fans in response to CPU temps with PWM header and Phanteks PCB eliminating any PWM noise as the PWM signal never reaches the fans or c) ya get no noise using VV fans and MoBo CHA headers.

2. As for the CPU versus GPU issue, you can connect to the fan header signal from the GPU if you want to control the Rad fans downstream of the GPU separately.
http://www.quietpc.com/gel-pwm-vga-cable

3. As we discussed before, even with synthetic GFX benchies have you found any of them where the GPUs only heat up ? In any demanding current game, my CPU temps are mid 60s whereas the GPU temps are in mid to hi 30s. While in theory, the logic is totally sound, in practice the problem never materializes. Even in Furmark which I have running right now, w/ CPU running at a mere 40 watts, the CPU Core temps hit 53C (hottest core)..... (51C on Valley)..... while the GPU temps stabilize at 44C w/ 850 rpm fan speed limit .... If there is something you can run on a PC that gets the GPUs hotter than the CPUs on a WC build, I haven't seen it. So while you have a laid out a perfectly logical solution to the problem of the GPU being hotter than the CPU, I don't think that is a problem that anyone has ever actually experienced.

4. As for the starting / ending early thing .... again, you have a perfectly logical solution. But again, is there a "problem". Due to the thermal mass of the loop, how long it takes ya system to stabilize will depend on how much coolant is in the loop and to a lesser extent the thermal mass of everything in the loop. But if ya fans go from 550 rpm to 850 rpm, yes the geek in me says that I have made my system more efficient ..... but 3 minutes after P95 shutdown, my fans are still at 710 rpm ...at 6 they are at 617 rpm..... the FanXpert2 Software also provides for a 3.5 minute spin up / spin down time and even lets you program in a fan stop point.

5. With CPU only loads, my coolant temps don't really change that much .... Under P95, with an ambient temperature of 20.5, my coolant temp is 25.7 going into the rad downstream of the CPU and 25.2 coming out of the rad upstream of the CPU ....a Delta T across the rads of only 0.5C....my worse core temp peak was 84C (AVX loads and Adaptive). If I was controlling based upon water temps, I'd really be concerned about having more pump and fan speeds when CPU temps are that high than when delta T = 5C.

In summary, everything you said (except for the PWM part), makes perfect logical sense ...... in theory. But in a practical sense, I don't think the problems which the solution addresses arise all that often (if ever) and, if so, alternatives exist which provide equivalent functionality.

a) PWM and VV are just two different means of accomplishing the same thing. To control ya system via CPU temperature with PWM, connect what you want to control to one of the two PWM headers on the MoBo (CPU or CPU_OPT). To control ya system via CPU temperature with variable voltage (VV), connect what you want to control to one of the many 3 or 4 pin headers on the MoBo (CHA or OPT).

b) If you wanna control fan speeds on different rads separately, you can use the fan headers on the GPUs instead of the MoBo. Not something I'd recommend

c) I have yet to find any program that I can run that drives my WC'd GPUs to a higher temp than my WC'd CPU. As my GPU temps have never risen above 44C with fans running, having the fans respond to any change of temps is of no consequence. Running at fixed minimum speed still keeps them > 30C below any temp I'd be concerned about.

d) Ramping fans up and down is provided for via the pump curves and setting ramp up and ramp down speeds. However, if you ignore them, what is the impact on the user experience if the fans did not start and end early ? Saving 4.5 watts for 3 minutes say 6 times a day ?

From a power cost perspective .... 4.5 watts x 3 min / 60 min per hr x 6 times 1 kw / 1000 watts x $0.10 per kw/hr = 5 cents a year

From a noise perspective ..... in my case there really is 0 impact as my fans are dead silent from 900 rpm down. You you don't hear anything at any of those speeds and since nothing has as yet made me exceed 850 when fan curves are controlling, there is no impact. However, if you went light on rads and made up for that with high speed fans..... you would be able to observe a difference.... that being a 3 hour gaming session would only have perhaps 2 hours and 57 minutes of observable noise.

I have easily spend 50 - 60 hours running tests, tweaking fan curves and the like but must honestly say, other than loads of geeky enjoyment, it has not impacted the system or the user experience in any observable way. If set the fan curves to a fixed 850 rpm, the only effect is that they would be running faster than they need to.... there is no observable noise impact and the power savings is barely measurable.....so, one could argue, what's the point ?

Many MoBos today come with OPT thermal sensors. Asus for example has 3 OPT thermistor inputs on the M6F and you can read the temps in the BIOS and in the AISuite software. They also provide 3 OPT fan headers. I do think at some point in the very near future we will see those OPT thermistor inputs and OPT fan headers linked via the FanXpert software.

e) If I was controlling fan speed based upon Delta T and my worse case was 10C .... say:

Delta T = 1C = 25% fan speed
Delta T = 2C = 25% fan speed
Delta T = 3C = 30% fan speed
Delta T = 4C = 40% fan speed
Delta T = 5C = 50% fan speed
....
Delta T = 9C = 90% fan speed
Delta T = 10C = 100% fan speed

What I would have is my fans running very close to full speed (90%) and in the audible range at 9C under huge GPU load ..... do I really care whether temps are 39C or 44C if I gotta pit up with fan noise ?

OTOH, my fans running at 50% speed (Delta T of 5) with a max CPU core temp of 84 under a heavy CPU load and I'd be very much want it to be in the 90%+ range at that temp. At 84C, unlike the GPUs 40ish temp, I am starting to get concerned about temps. Instead of 0.5C across the rads and a max coolant temp of 25.7 at 50% speed.... I dropped 8C to 76C on CPU temps and max coolant temp was 24.6 at 90% speed

To summarize, I don't think there is a "best way" to control fan speeds in all circumstances..... there is a best way for each of several conditions and circumstances.

-Control based upon GPU is rather meaningless as under any conceivable circumstance, your GPUs are in no danger of overheating.

-Control based upon CPU does make sure that the only component in danger is always of primary concern..... CPU testing does result in hi CPU temps and meaningless GPU temps and GPU testing, even with GPU benchies still produces significant CPU temps. Under any circumstance I have experienced with a water cooled system, GPU's never exceeded CPU temps.
-Control based upon water temps will work well in high GPU loads and in mixed load situations but will be less than ideal under CPU only loads because the CPUs thermal outputs is typically only 15% or so of the thermal load a twin GFX card system is designed for. the control system will therefore be indifferent to hi CPU temps because while CPU temps will be bear max, the system coolant temps will be scarcely be above idle....since stopping P95, I went from 24.6 max coolant temp @ 90% fan rpm (25.7 @ 50%) to just 24.3

Its that last scenario that is troubling .... with fan speeds based upon coolant temps, how do I get my fans to 90% at 24 - 26C (CPU temps at 80) under a CPU test ..... and then at an inaudible speed when gaming with the coolant temps at 30C, CPU temps are 65C and GPU temps are at 40C ?

I can't see the problem here. If the water does not get warm then it is cooling the CPU just fine. Speeding up fans won't even do anything much. It will actually be cooling better than in a mixed load or GPU load simply because the water stays cooler.
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post #23 of 36
there is huge difference in deltas between 'just enough' rads and rad overkill. those with rad overkill, you, wont see the use of water temp controlled fan speed like someone with 1/2 your rad area.
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post #24 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire View Post

I can't see the problem here. If the water does not get warm then it is cooling the CPU just fine. Speeding up fans won't even do anything much. It will actually be cooling better than in a mixed load or GPU load simply because the water stays cooler.

It's not proving out when I simulate water temp control.......to simulate I ran a test.....Prime95 brings water temps up just 2C w/ fans at 50% speed, meanwhile CPU was in 80s....will repeat from 350 - 1250 and see how I do.
Edited by JackNaylorPE - 3/29/14 at 1:17pm
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post #25 of 36
Look, it's very simple.
If your water temp does not rise, if it stays the same, than it doesn't matter which processor/vrm/ram/ambient is heating up or not.
If the water temp stays low, than there is no need to push up the fan speeds.
If the water temp rises, no matter what the cause is, than a water temp control will turn up the fan speed.

You claim your VGA's can put out as much as 4x the heat of your CPU.
If so, than controlling temps based on CPU temps makes even less sense.

And if you control based on GPU temps and go encode a vid, your CPU will get hot, heat up your water, and your fans will slow down because your cards are idle.

I don't understand how you think controlling based on water temp can ever be a bad idea, in any scenario.

Water temp is the second best way to control rad fans.
The best way would be using dT, but AFAIK only the Aquaero allows that.
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post #26 of 36
It's not a matter of thinking, it's matter of making a hypothesis, testing it and seeing if it works, ..... it didn't. I started with the very same hypothesis that you did. It seemed so logical, but water temp control just didn't pan out. In the end, I couldn't argue with the temperature meters; simply put, they proved my hypothesis wrong. The correlation between CPU temps and water temps is all over the place. GPUs are very efficient at removing heat from GFX cards, by comparison, CPU WBs are terrible. This is what you are not taking into account. Hi CPU temps do NOT result in hi water temps....run the tests yourself.

How fast ya want your fans to go with a Delta T of 4.4 C ? That's water temps at 26.3 or basically 2.8C over idle temps ? Probably not very fast.

Condition 1 = 200 watts
CPU Load = 40 watts
GPU1 = 80 watts
GPU2 = 80 watts

Condition 2 = 200 watts
CPU Load = 140 watts
GPU1 = 30 watts
GPU2 = 30 watts

Those two conditions will result in the exact same impact in water temps. So the question is.....is there any fan curve that you can make to respond to water temps at a 200 watt load that satisfies your design conditions under both Condition 1 and Condition 2 ?

In condition 1, I *thought* set my fans to go at say 30% as my system load is 25% of my theoretical max. Sound appropriate ? It did to me ..... it didn't pan out.

So I tested it under condition 2 and with max core temp of CPU at 86C I have to say I wasn't satisfied. At 86C, I want my fans giving me all they can put out. So what's the alternative ? ....all fans at 100% when water temps at 26C ? I can manage that playing 10 year old games with CPU temps in 50s and GPU temps in mid 30s.

On the other hand, I have found no condition where controlling by CPU temps has a downside.... if you can think of one, I'd be happy to test it. I have not been able to create any condition whereby the CPU receives maximum protection using water temps whereby I do not get excessive fan speeds when unneeded.
Edited by JackNaylorPE - 3/29/14 at 3:27pm
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post #27 of 36
did you see this jack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pc-illiterate View Post

there is huge difference in deltas between 'just enough' rads and rad overkill. those with rad overkill, you, wont see the use of water temp controlled fan speed like someone with 1/2 your rad area.

if you delidded you wouldnt even see temps that high on your cpu. it runs hot but doesnt transfer that heat out, aka it gets hot but doesnt create the same heat output. simplest way to put it.
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post #28 of 36
With a Delta T of 12.8C under full load, I'd hardly call that "overkill". I don't have a lot of rad by any standard .... particularly with just 1200 rpm fans in push only for a 792 watt theoretical max load.

Again, there are many reasons why CPU temps are high but ..... in the end the question remains, do we want our CPUs running at 86C when they could just as easily be 76C ? Do we want our fans at 100% in order to protect against that 86 and then be running at 100% when we playing a 10 year old game. Regardless of rads .... do we want our fans running the same under a 200 watt load when CPU temps are high as it does on a 650 watt load when temps are relatively low ?

One of the reasons I bought the supremacy was that I had planned on doing "Nakid Ivy" if I couldn't manage a 4.6 Ghz OC with satisfactory temps with RoG Real Bench.... I topped out at 74C during the OpenCL portion w/ AVX so figured why bother.

Re-Test not finished yet but here's something surprising ....from 550 rpm to 950 rpm showing the exact same "Rad 1 In - Rad 2 Out Delta" of 0.7 .... at 350 it was 0.6 .... but CPU temp has dropped 7C and Delta T has dropped from 7.1 to 2.6.

Here's the better question ..... why control fan speeds at all if they are silent or even "not annoying" across the entire range of operation ?

Again, while it really doesn't matter a bean it seems how I control the fans from a user experience standpoint, I sure am learning a lot .... and getting a lotta surprises testing it. I do think the method needs work as "peak recorded core temps" is prolly not the best way to do this.....Core 0 was my hottest core in the 1st 5 or 6 runs and now Core 1 is....and also shouldn't have used a blend but a more consistent selection on P95


EDIT:

OK here's today's P95 test results.

Saw much higher temps this time with 20 minute run as opposed to previous one.... not a matter of loop heating up but which test P95 was running ...after 15 minutes power readings spiked considerably..... will try and repeat with more consistent loading
With fans from 350 rpm to 850 rpm, max CPU core temp dropped from 86C to 79C
From 850 rpm to 1200 rpm, no benefit, tho I want to retest these as AISuite "stopped running" on the 950 and 1200 rpm tests
Maximum Power Draw at the wall peaked at 274 watts (234) PSU output
Delta T across the rads was 0.7 from 550 to 1200 rpm


Delta T to Air dropped steadily from 350 to 1200 rpm
GPUs were at 23C ... interestingly enough, 1.5C below water temp.
Edited by JackNaylorPE - 3/29/14 at 5:22pm
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post #29 of 36
the only controlling my fans get is 7v not 12v. i have no reason to jerk around with fan speeds. max air-water delta is 8.5*C playing the mess called bf4. my room gets hot but im more than happy with the temps. planning to get a 750d and another rad real soon and see what temps i can get then. even less reason to worry about fan speeds...
w00t
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w00t
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post #30 of 36
I still don't see the problem. If the water does not get very warm then speeding up the fans to full speed is pointless. You can't make it any colder to cool better.
If core temps are high then they will be high, speeding up the fans won't help. Water does the cooling.

Unless the water temp is rising by 10C under prime load then spinning the fans isn't going to mean a 10C core difference.

In my system the water rises by about 2.5C and fans stay under 1000RPM. Full speed fans, as CPU temp control would do straight away, will only drop that by about 1 or maybe 2C.
Battlefield 4 will raise water temps by 7.5C to about +10 and the carve is set so full fan speed is at +12C

Prime 95 load

Edited by Jakusonfire - 3/30/14 at 6:37am
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Kusanagi
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