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Samsung 840 EVO 1TB in Raid 0? - Page 2

post #11 of 37
TRIM in RAID 0 is only available on Intel 7 and 8 series chipset boards (Z77, Z87, etc), AMD does not have TRIM support in RAID, not even on their new A88X chipset.

The Samsung Magician manual TRIM feature does not work with SSDs in RAID unfortunately, that would be a great feature, but it's just not available.

Windows 8 has a new manual TRIM "Optimize" feature that can be run on RAID 0 arrays. I can't verify that it works correctly on AMD systems, since I don't have any.

All AMD and Intel RAID implementations use a RAID driver, a basic one for each is included with Windows 7, but who knows what version it it. Those drivers are required for RAID to function. You can install the full RAID driver package provided by AMD and Intel after Windows is installed. Intel's includes a Windows UI that allows you to maintain and configure RAID arrays, not sure about AMDs.

Low IOPs with the AMD RAID setup could be caused by a few things. The AMD SATA III interface does not perform at the same level that Intel's does. CPU power saving options, when enabled will cause lower performance scores in benchmark programs. If the RAID volume is also the OS drive, that can cause lower benchmark scores, since it is doing the OS work at the same time as having the benchmark run on it.

Don't forget that ALL performance specs for ANY SSD include the magic words, "Up To", meaning the specs are a maximum, not a guaranteed spec. IOPs are dependent on the speed of the SATA interface in most cases, more IOPs (I/O Operations per Second) can be accomplished on a faster interface, if the drive is capable of performing more IOPs.

I have had bad experiences using the Samsung cloning software, the result has always been a partially functional "new" OS installation on the Samsung SSD. It will boot into Windows, but some programs refuse to run or fail immediately. That was just cloning from one SSD to one Samsung SSD, some cloning software will not clone to a RAID array. I tried it several times, always the same result. I used a different cloning program which worked perfectly with the same SSDs and PC.

TwoCables, so you are an advocate of the Magician software now? I like it too, although it is not perfect (few things are.) You know some people don't like it and consider it bloatware, but IMO if you can't spare several MBs of storage for it, you have other problems. It does install as a Window auto-run, needlessly IMO, and on some PCs (like mine) will not allow Windows Sleep to work correctly, the PC wakes within seconds of entering Sleep. If you start a thread about it, be prepared to be ripped by the naysayers.
post #12 of 37
I find myself arguing with Samsung magician, however it has done it's thing and my machine is running great (750 EVO), although I am annoyed at only 698Gb available, but that's a whole other argument smile.gif

Anyway, as for RAID0 supposing you do get TRIM working, are you actually going to see a huge performance increase? or are you hitting sata III limits?
    
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post #13 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by BakerMan1971 View Post

I find myself arguing with Samsung magician, however it has done it's thing and my machine is running great (750 EVO), although I am annoyed at only 698Gb available, but that's a whole other argument smile.gif

Anyway, as for RAID0 supposing you do get TRIM working, are you actually going to see a huge performance increase? or are you hitting sata III limits?

The purpose of TRIM was to add a function that only SSDs need that is not provided by any file system (like NTFS), that were designed for the way HDDs operate, which is different than SSDs. TRIM does not really increase performance, it simply helps to maintain a SSDs performance. TRIM cannot increase a SSDs performance beyond its standard capability. The only way TRIM seems to increase performance is that it is able to restore a SSDs basic performance, that has degraded over time for whatever reason.

So the answer to your question is no, you will not get any performance increase over the fresh baseline, empty SSD RAID 0 volume performance if TRIM is available to the RAID 0 volume.
post #14 of 37
Thread Starter 
Just to make things worse, I put my two SSD running in AHCI, not raid, to test them individually and see if the low iops was a problem of just one of them or raid 0.

To my surprise, both of them performed around 45K/50K IOPS, which is just sad, I bought these hard drives because of the 98K IOPS advertised speed, and I'm getting only half of it.

Can't be the drives are lemon, I got two and they both run the same, that has to be worst luck in the world, I have no idea what is causing these low IOPS.
post #15 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dargonplay View Post

Just to make things worse, I put my two SSD running in AHCI, not raid, to test them individually and see if the low iops was a problem of just one of them or raid 0.

To my surprise, both of them performed around 45K/50K IOPS, which is just sad, I bought these hard drives because of the 98K IOPS advertised speed, and I'm getting only half of it.

Can't be the drives are lemon, I got two and they both run the same, that has to be worst luck in the world, I have no idea what is causing these low IOPS.

 

I thought that parsec answered it already:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by parsec View Post

TRIM in RAID 0 is only available on Intel 7 and 8 series chipset boards (Z77, Z87, etc), AMD does not have TRIM support in RAID, not even on their new A88X chipset.

The Samsung Magician manual TRIM feature does not work with SSDs in RAID unfortunately, that would be a great feature, but it's just not available.

Windows 8 has a new manual TRIM "Optimize" feature that can be run on RAID 0 arrays. I can't verify that it works correctly on AMD systems, since I don't have any.

All AMD and Intel RAID implementations use a RAID driver, a basic one for each is included with Windows 7, but who knows what version it it. Those drivers are required for RAID to function. You can install the full RAID driver package provided by AMD and Intel after Windows is installed. Intel's includes a Windows UI that allows you to maintain and configure RAID arrays, not sure about AMDs.

Low IOPs with the AMD RAID setup could be caused by a few things. The AMD SATA III interface does not perform at the same level that Intel's does. CPU power saving options, when enabled will cause lower performance scores in benchmark programs. If the RAID volume is also the OS drive, that can cause lower benchmark scores, since it is doing the OS work at the same time as having the benchmark run on it.

Don't forget that ALL performance specs for ANY SSD include the magic words, "Up To", meaning the specs are a maximum, not a guaranteed spec. IOPs are dependent on the speed of the SATA interface in most cases, more IOPs (I/O Operations per Second) can be accomplished on a faster interface, if the drive is capable of performing more IOPs.

I have had bad experiences using the Samsung cloning software, the result has always been a partially functional "new" OS installation on the Samsung SSD. It will boot into Windows, but some programs refuse to run or fail immediately. That was just cloning from one SSD to one Samsung SSD, some cloning software will not clone to a RAID array. I tried it several times, always the same result. I used a different cloning program which worked perfectly with the same SSDs and PC.

TwoCables, so you are an advocate of the Magician software now? I like it too, although it is not perfect (few things are.) You know some people don't like it and consider it bloatware, but IMO if you can't spare several MBs of storage for it, you have other problems. It does install as a Window auto-run, needlessly IMO, and on some PCs (like mine) will not allow Windows Sleep to work correctly, the PC wakes within seconds of entering Sleep. If you start a thread about it, be prepared to be ripped by the naysayers.

 

parsec: I just noticed the part directed toward me!

 

Yeah, I decided against it because I'm usually the same way. I mean, when I learned about Magician, I was like, "lol there's no way that I'm going to install that". Then, I looked into it a little more and I was quite impressed (to say the least). Right then and there, I knew that I was going to install it and have it running 24/7 - if for no other reason than to have a fun reminder of my new badass solid state drives. Besides, it's only consuming roughly 17-18 MB of memory and it doesn't change my shut down or startup time at all. So, why NOT have it start with Windows?


Edited by TwoCables - 3/12/14 at 12:12pm
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post #16 of 37
Thread Starter 
Based on his answer I take that AMD architecture don't fully utilize my SSD like Intel? If that's so, it's even more sad that I thought.

Also, he says that speeds are "UP To 98K IOPS" which means you won't really get that speed all the time, but getting half that is really bad.

Other than that, I don't see how it answered my question since all this information feel really ambiguous, if the AMD southbridge can't handle those IOPS, then should I overclock it? It feels like there's so little documentation on SSD, like if it were a black market product, I though that at this point there would be a paradise of information regarding all matters related to SSD, but it's just the opposite
post #17 of 37

I really don't know. I just felt that parsec's answer was the best, but that's not saying that it actually is. He's right about the "up to", because that's all these specs mean. None of them are guaranteed. They are all "up to". It has always been that way, even with mechanical drives.

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post #18 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by BakerMan1971 View Post

I find myself arguing with Samsung magician, however it has done it's thing and my machine is running great (750 EVO), although I am annoyed at only 698Gb available, but that's a whole other argument smile.gif

1 REAL Gigabyte = 1024*1024*1024 bytes = 1,073,741,824 bytes. 698 "real" GB = 750 "marketing" GB. =)

As for the 98K IOPS vs. getting 40K IOPS, unless you're running a 4K database page load or copying tens of thousands of very small files (e.g. 1-32 KB each) - you won't even notice the difference. A typical 7200 RPM HDD delivers like 2K IOPS, and that's rarely a bottleneck on a desktop PC.

Greg
post #19 of 37

Yeah, don't fret. My 250 GB 840 EVOs have an actual capacity of 232 GB. I've never had a drive that had the same actual capacity as what was advertised. Have you? Think back.

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post #20 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dargonplay View Post

Based on his answer I take that AMD architecture don't fully utilize my SSD like Intel? If that's so, it's even more sad that I thought.

Also, he says that speeds are "UP To 98K IOPS" which means you won't really get that speed all the time, but getting half that is really bad.

Other than that, I don't see how it answered my question since all this information feel really ambiguous, if the AMD southbridge can't handle those IOPS, then should I overclock it? It feels like there's so little documentation on SSD, like if it were a black market product, I though that at this point there would be a paradise of information regarding all matters related to SSD, but it's just the opposite
Consumer queue depth is generally 1-8..... if you want to max out benchmarks, you want to do 32 deep....

There's plenty of information on SSDs... but most of it contains a lot of complexity that the majority won't understand....


For example, you have a 750 gigabyte (GB) SSD. That translates to 698.49 gigibyte (GiB). This is how storage has been specified and marketed for the last 35+ years.
gigabyte = 1000^3
gigibyte = 1024^3

While GiB is more "correct", GB is still used but consumers are suppose to understand this.
Edited by DuckieHo - 3/12/14 at 2:03pm
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