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[TheIntercept] How the NSA Plans to Infect ‘Millions’ of Computers with Malware - Page 6

post #51 of 108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serp777 View Post

Well your stance is equally naive, if not more. How much privacy should people be allowed to have? Security cameras should be banned. Capturing people's images might infringe on privacy. Warrants? No, that would violate maximum privacy. The internet? It collects data which might infringe on privacy, definitely banned. I mean you're requiring me to draw a line in the sand, so im just reflecting the same logic back to you.
Nope, your example is completely moot. The question of videotaping in PUBLIC versus PRIVATE spaces has been settled (for the most part). In fact, the videotaping of police has come under some scrunity but it basically leans towards that the public has a right.
https://www.aclu.org/free-speech/know-your-rights-photographers

Internet communication (like phone or mail) is considered PRIVATE.

Furthermore, how do you know if the data collected "infringe on privacy" or not? Do you know how the Internet and packet captures work? In fact, the NSA stores encrypted user data for future cracking. How would they know if the contents are private or not?

In fact, the settlement of public vs private videotaping (and FLIR even) has been settled by public discourse. There has not been enough discussion or public agreement on the topic of Internet. Being the case, the government should not just default to the position that it is ok.
Quote:
Originally Posted by serp777 View Post

Plus If someone felt vindictive or threatened, they could always kill them, or stage a crime, or do any number of things that would be just as bad if not worse and way more effective than threatening someone with a j walking charge. What you're describing is a police state. Many judges aren't unreasonable and would recognize something petty, or if the punishment was too severe for the crime. So yeah, they could single out someone and give them a ticket! how serious.. .

All you did was take my position and create a false dilemma. Furthermore, I doubt martial law would lower crime since there would be rebellion. That just doesnt make any sense.
Killing someone or staging a crime is criminal action. Why would a person need to that if they just want to harass or intimidate someone? People in power do use the law as a weapon of intimidation.

False dilemma? Maybe you should go read up on US history? How about..... the civil rights movement of the 1950s? Or McCarthyism? Or J. Edgar Hoover? Stonewall Inn?

Off the top of my head from my raver days... The Baltimore Police's intimidation of Lonnie Fisher of Ultraworld productions. Lonnie lost money and spent years of his time fighting back. When the DA finally stepped in, they agreed that a private citizen was being singled-out and had identified one officer using his authority improperly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by serp777 View Post

Generally lawful should be pretty clear. I could write an entire essay defining generally lawful, but the idea is no major crimes like blowing up buildings, or murder, or theft, etc. I didn't think I would have to spell out the obvious.
Are you in law? There is no such thing as "generally" or "obvious" in law. Why do you think we have so many lawyers? Please attempt to write an essay covering this topic. Do you have examples that set precedent? Laws are general... but implementation, execution, and interpretation is in the details.

I occasionally do preliminary reviews of software contacts before passing it legal.... Why do thinks contracts are like 5-20 pages purchase something like software?



Quote:
Originally Posted by serp777 View Post

And finally, how do you know that data has resulted in no crime prevention? You have some hidden studies I don't know that include confidential government systems?
The Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board (PCLOB) said so:
* "we see little evidence that the unique capabilities provided by the NSA's bulk collection of telephone records actually have yielded material counterterrorism results that could not have been achieved without the NSA's Section 215 program."
* "Cessation of the program would eliminate the privacy and civil liberties concerns associated with bulk collection without unduly hampering the government’s efforts, while ensuring that any governmental requests for telephone calling records are tailored to the needs of specific investigations."
Edited by DuckieHo - 3/17/14 at 7:39am
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post #52 of 108
The ironic thing is this is happening in a country where people have the power to tell their government to stop.

If the majority want something, it's going to happen. Heck you don't even need 51%, these organizations can actually be very responsive, but everyone just sits on their hands and complains instead of getting involved.

People get the government they deserve.
post #53 of 108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveHighDPI View Post

The ironic thing is this is happening in a country where people have the power to tell their government to stop.

If the majority want something, it's going to happen. Heck you don't even need 51%, these organizations can actually be very responsive, but everyone just sits on their hands and complains instead of getting involved.

People get the government they deserve.
Actually, the problem here was that the people did not know.
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post #54 of 108
Glenn Greenwald - the new Alex Jones, and a scoundrel to boot.
post #55 of 108
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Originally Posted by pjsuther View Post

Glenn Greenwald - the new Alex Jones, and a scoundrel to boot.

Huh? Alex Jones is a conspiracy theorist.

Glen Greenwald is a reporter disclosing government documentation. These are provably true since it's the government saying what it does.
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post #56 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Possibly lead to crime prevention? So.... the years of phone metadata has yield exactly ZERO direct terrorist prevention.
How can you know that? You don't, and you are wrong.

Also, this article is really sensationalistic. These "robots" are not for examining information and determining whether you are a risk or not. They only manage the collection of the information (i.e. installation of the APTs) - humans still examine the information manually.

And no, humans don't go over ALL of the data. That's what those "selectors" that they mention are for. Information is collected, and then selectors are used to view information for a specific, predetermined target. As covered in previous articles, it is illegal (and the agency enforces this - I've even read an article about specific cases and action taken) for the agency to task information about American citizens without a FISA court warrant.

They do have specific targets they are interested in. This broadening out they are doing is probably a result of traditional SIGINT no longer being effective (due to widespread use of encryption), and their inability to locate targets within the Internet for infection without already having widespread infection. In the past, they could probably locate targets and only then infect them using SIGINT. Nowadays that is significantly harder (if not impossible), so the only way to locate a target is by using information found on the computer itself, and that requires them to have already infected it at that point.

There is some trickiness here. I think that if American citizens saw the NSA from within, they would realize several things:
1. The vast majority of its employees are probably very patriotic and have a strong sense of morality.
2. That this is probably part of their recruitment scheme.
3. That their leaders also share those traits, and take very seriously the prevention of misuse.

And public opinion would take a 180 degree turn. But for American citizens to be able to see the NSA from within would mean that others could too, and that would cripple the NSA.

So then what do you do?
Edited by Coma - 3/17/14 at 9:35am
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post #57 of 108
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Originally Posted by Coma View Post

How can you know that? You don't, and you are wrong.
Actually, I do. I have already said how.... The Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board (PCLOB) performed an independent (enough) review: http://www.pclob.gov/SiteAssets/Pages/default/PCLOB-Report-on-the-Telephone-Records-Program.pdf

"Based on the information provided to the Board, including classified briefings and documentation, we have not identified a single instance involving a threat to the United States in which the program made a concrete difference in the outcome of a counterterrorism investigation."

(Note: the review was of the one major program.)

I know about the NSA and understand the technology being used. They supposedly have their own fab plant and cannot get enough power for their main complex.

I don't have a problem with NSA as all. However, to blindly say everything is ok is silly.
Edited by DuckieHo - 3/17/14 at 11:17am
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post #58 of 108
I cannot understand people willingly giving up their individual freedoms, liberties and privacy just because "they" don't do anything wrong. Simple answer, ABUSE OF POWER. Give people the ability and someone will abuse it, period. Keep giving away your individual freedoms and eventually you will be doing something wrong.

You should read Ameritopia: The Unmaking of America by Mark Levine. Also listen to Reagans radio speech from the 60s. All coming true now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs

As long as Americans have their tv, internet, cell phone and a cup cake to shove in their mouth they don't care what their ruling class is doing to their individual freedoms. Have you never heard of just the states introducing 1000s of new laws on the book each year? A quick google search said 40,000 just in 2012.

ok, I'm out. Time for some gaming. wink.gif
post #59 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krahe View Post

So you advocate no privacy? And total government control? It was bad when Hitler did it, it was bad when Stalin did it, but hey if you did nothing wrong under those regimes you were fine................rolleyes.gif

So you'd advocate 100% privacy? And no government control? Lets move back to the anarchic Nomadic era without technology so everyone can have maximum privacy. Sorry, just flipping your absurd false dilemma back on you rolleyes.gif
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post #60 of 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by kornedbeefy View Post

I cannot understand people willingly giving up their individual freedoms, liberties and privacy just because "they" don't do anything wrong. Simple answer, ABUSE OF POWER. Give people the ability and someone will abuse it, period. Keep giving away your individual freedoms and eventually you will be doing something wrong.

You should read Ameritopia: The Unmaking of America by Mark Levine. Also listen to Reagans radio speech from the 60s. All coming true now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs

As long as Americans have their tv, internet, cell phone and a cup cake to shove in their mouth they don't care what their ruling class is doing to their individual freedoms. Have you never heard of just the states introducing 1000s of new laws on the book each year? A quick google search said 40,000 just in 2012.

ok, I'm out. Time for some gaming. wink.gif

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/mar/17/oxfam-report-scale-britain-growing-financial-inequality

^ the growing divide

you need a control structure in place to keep the divide.
Edited by Pip Boy - 3/17/14 at 12:48pm
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