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[RT] ASUS Introduces the Essence STX II and Essence STX II 7.1 Sound Cards - Page 8

post #71 of 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by prerich View Post



P.S. You can have the best chip there is, write bad drivers for it - and it will perform like garbage. And by the way - in the sound industry - we tend to prefer ASIO due to its low latency.

Latency doesn't matter when listening, and only listening, to one audio source. Even WASAPI is fast enough for that. Since you work in the "Sound Industry" and not the "Music Production Industry" I will forgive you for not knowing why/when people prefer ASIO.
Edited by DVLux - 3/26/14 at 1:37pm
post #72 of 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcfoo View Post

You realize that a steel M3 screw that SHOULD be used when securing your cards in your case, is actually holding down your card with a few 100s of lbs of force, right?
And that you are not supposed to just plug it in and "hope" it stays put by the spring friction introduced by the slot's contacts?

Just checking. rolleyes.gif

The system you are suggesting adds complexity and cost for no real benefit.

How naive can you get. Sure, the screw holds the bracket in place, but there is ample flex in the bracket itself to let the card move several millimetres at it's rear, enough to come into contact with an immediately neighbouring card. Mounted horizontally, the card will sag under it's own weight. The weight of connected cables can also make the cards twist. , which is especially relevant to the STX, as the 'worst case' scenario includes 4xRCA cables which can exert significant force.
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post #73 of 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oubadah View Post

How naive can you get. Sure, the screw holds the bracket in place, but there is ample flex in the bracket itself to let the card move several millimetres at it's rear, enough to come into contact with an immediately neighbouring card. Mounted horizontally, the card will sag under it's own weight. The weight of connected cables can also make the cards twist. , which is especially relevant to the STX, as the 'worst case' scenario includes 4xRCA cables which can exert significant force.

Your choice of words doesn't give credit to what you say...

The RCA cables can exert "significant" force, but the pivot point is ...well...right at the axis of the screw = very small torque developed. I challenge you to pull those cables on purpose and "move" the card without touching it...you will bend or even break the RCA terminals before the card gets moved "several mm"...that's with added external force...
With just the weight of the cables? REALLY? what are you using, solid copper 1" rods? Or are the front panel connection cables introducing all this tension?

Sure, you can intentionally "bend" the PCB with your fingers several mm if you like, but that's not the intended force an internal card needs to resist, and would happen with a full-PCIe 16x card too...

I can bend my GPU in this manner easily, and the hoses in most WC setups can also introduce significant forces and slight bends and flexes etc, but again, the card doesn't stay put in place because of the PCI slot, but because of the screws, the SLI bridges or other "solid" connection points. And GPUs with full cover copper water blocks are many times heavier than a STX...

Me thinks - you know, in a naïve way - you have things a bit exaggerated in your mind.
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post #74 of 231
'Me thinks' you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Have you even used one of these cards?



Don't see a problem there?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcfoo View Post

I challenge you to pull those cables on purpose and "move" the card without touching it...you will bend or even break the RCA terminals before the card gets moved "several mm"...that's with added external force....

http://youtu.be/QOSQg6UaTu0
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcfoo View Post

With just the weight of the cables? REALLY? what are you using, solid copper 1" rods?
Like I say, it doesn't take much to move it. Maybe if you're using the hair-thin giveaway cables your grandmother got with her $20 DVD player it's OK, but any normally sized, shielded cables do represent a significant weight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcfoo View Post

Sure, you can intentionally "bend" the PCB with your fingers several mm if you like, but that's not the intended force an internal card needs to resist, and would happen with a full-PCIe 16x card too...

Not nearly as much. Since the PCI-E 1x slot is so short, and its quite a loose fit, you actually get some of this happening:



Quote:
Originally Posted by pcfoo View Post

I can bend my GPU in this manner easily, and the hoses in most WC setups can also introduce significant forces and slight bends and flexes etc, but again, the card doesn't stay put in place because of the PCI slot, but because of the screws, the SLI bridges or other "solid" connection points. And GPUs with full cover copper water blocks are many times heavier than a STX...

What makes you think GPUs are at all relevant. They use more robust brackets, the card is fastened to the bracket, not only by bolts through the PCB, but inevitably by DVI and/or D-SUB stand-offs and just about every card these days uses two screws to secure the bracket to the case.

That said, you try mounting a full size GPU horizontally in a case with no motherboard to support it, and you'll see it sag. In fact, I'm not even particularly happy about GPUs in the 16x slot anymore, considering how heavy they've become. We've all seen the pictures of split 16x slots, and all it takes is one slip - say, you're moving your case and you drop it a couple of inches. So that's one of the reasons why I personally prefer vertical cases like the FT02, or if I'm using a horizontal case I'll put in a little bit of effort to ensure the rear of my GPU is supported:




(amendment: In my last post I said the STX had four RCA connectors, but I had it confused with the Titanium HD, not that it detracts from my argument - three RCA plus two 6.35mm jacks is even more of an issue)
Edited by Oubadah - 3/26/14 at 6:05pm
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post #75 of 231
Impressed by your persistence and "perfectionism", but I still believe that you are over-exaggerating the facts.

Do cards sag / twist and womble ? Sure. So are cars, trucks, aircrafts and buildings.

Would your card move as much mounted on an actual motherboard? Even in a PCIe 1x?
Probably not as much.

Would it move even less if mounted in a higher gauge case?
Probably even less.

Again, too much fuzz, blink and a rude mouth, for a weak argument that boils down to personal obsessions. "Bend words and cards all you want".

My bad to be here the 1st place.
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post #76 of 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcfoo View Post

...a weak argument...

That's really beautiful coming from someone who just stooped to moving the goal posts:
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcfoo View Post

Would your card move as much mounted on an actual motherboard? Even in a PCIe 1x?
Probably not as much.

I thought the card stayed put because of "solid connection points"*, not PCI-E slots... You can't have it both ways.

I don't have a spare motherboard to put it in, and I suspect that if I had shown it twisting in a PCI-E slot, further goal post moving and hand waving arguments would have followed from you. Rest assured that the card does move in the PCI-E 1x slot, otherwise I'd never have complained about it in the first place. For now, Ill give you a nice picture of an STX 'in the wild':



As you can see, it's not sitting straight in it's slot, and coming into contact with the neighbouring GPU.

Source: http://www.overclock.net/t/1245987/first-build-hitting-multiple-roadblocks-need-help

*And there's a little gem I missed before: PCI-E ports fixed to the motherboards are apparently not classed as "solid connection points", and yet SLI bridges are? SLI bridge, ie. small piece of PCB attached to the card by what is structurally identical to a small PCI-E port, only the PCB is floating as opposed to being bolted to the case. rolleyes.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcfoo View Post

Would it move even less if mounted in a higher gauge case?
Probably even less.

As for the case: Firstly, that case uses heavier gauge steel than the average case today. Just look at the paper thin sheet used in Fractal's R3, Silverstone's TJ-06-E and most of the popular cases around here. Actually, that reinforces my point nicely too: trends for thin sheet metal in cases only increase the need for other sources of support.

Secondly, that's completely irrelevant, becasue the case wasn't flexing at all (as I took great pains to show with a close-up of the area that clearly shows all the flex happening in the card's bracket).
Edited by Oubadah - 3/26/14 at 9:02pm
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post #77 of 231
When did I move the goalpost?

You are the one quote mining and "connection mining", exaggerating out of context, just to prove your point that cards flex so much etc. Mine doesn't, I called you for it.
And even if all was as you say it, I would be curious to see that "dummy - removable PCIe 1x to 16x extension" invention of yours. I mean, you could have asked for a lip inline with the end of the slot that either fits in the 16x or clears shorter slots completely, but what you proposed sounded too complicated, and would not save the issue your "wild" photos illustrate.

As for your single point connection example in the video, too bad you cannot figure out how even the slightest support from the PCIe 1x makes the difference.
Guess you can break a 1/2in steel cable coming down a crane with your own strength/weight since you can make it rotate or bend and flex if supported by a single point, right? Keep it apples to apples.

As for SLI bridges, it happened to be in the whole Watercooling example I was giving and I was referring to the solid SLI flow bridges that connect watercooled multi-GPU setups.

Go mine some more "gems", stroke your ego.

//

Rest of thread, sorry for the derail.
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post #78 of 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcfoo View Post

I mean, you could have asked for a lip inline with the end of the slot that either fits in the 16x or clears shorter slots completely...

That's exactly what I did say for pity's sake. I said a dummy 16x extension (as in bare PCB, no contacts), ie. the PCB extends beyond the 1x slot as if it were a full 16x card, except this needs to be able to be snapped off when the card is to be used in a 1x slot (otherwise you can guarantee that it would conflict with components on the motherboard). And before anyone has a whinge about messy snap-off points, Asus no longer dresses the edges of the PCBs (except to bevel insertion edge obviously) on these cards, so there are already snap-off points visible from manufacturing anyway. I had one of the original STXs (with the older bridge chip and purple caps) and the edges of the PCB were dressed, but that wasn't the case on my late 2013 card.

Anyway, I've revised my idea now idea now, in favour of a completely 'non-destructive' solution: Just leave a strip of unused area along the bottom edge of the card (which they've sort of already done) and provide a press-on extension for 16x slots. This probably wouldn't be as cheap as just leaving on some excess PCB though.

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post #79 of 231
Is that still the SNR for the chip alone, or the whole circuitry? I'd like to see some actual IMD, THD+n, SNR and freq. response graphs.
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post #80 of 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by seepra View Post

Is that still the SNR for the chip alone, or the whole circuitry? I'd like to see some actual IMD, THD+n, SNR and freq. response graphs.

these specs are always misleading as they always quote the DAC chip theoretical max.
freq. response will be ruler flat (like it should be) up to 20kHz so that should be a non-factor.
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