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[TechSoda] Waiting on 20nm graphics cards from Nvidia and AMD? Don’t bother. - Page 6

post #51 of 70
All i know is that it will be another year at least for GTX780 Ti replacement and 290X. To fill up the thirst they both will release 290X2 and 790.
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post #52 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post

All i know is that it will be another year at least for GTX780 Ti replacement and 290X. To fill up the thirst they both will release 290X2 and 790.

Agreed. The 790 should be here within the next couple of months.
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post #53 of 70
I added some more in forum discussion (leaving stuff out of an article is harder than putting it in). It's impossible to please everybody, especially you raghu. biggrin.gif

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=26006229&postcount=20

Hopefully that post will give more of an indication of what it took before I stepped up to the plate. There has to be good logic and reasoning behind it, otherwise you just leave yourself open to being ruined.

On Hardware.fr -

http://forum.hardware.fr/hfr/Hardware/2D-3D/unique-nvidia-maxwell-sujet_892798_10.htm#t9089428

Again, you choose what to believe. I would rather the article stands on its own merit - but if somebody is going to call me out on my AT posting history then I have no alternative but to defend myself with the same posting history elsewhere.
post #54 of 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post

All i know is that it will be another year at least for GTX780 Ti replacement and 290X. To fill up the thirst they both will release 290X2 and 790.

Won't be that long. Within a month we will see the gtx 790, and I think it is likely the gtx 8xx series will show with high end in the early to mid Summer.
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post #55 of 70
reference 880 release can bite me, bring on the classified card 3 months later please.
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post #56 of 70
Par example:
Quote:
So node shrinks bring more money and smaller, faster chips – while using less power than before…it’s just a win all round. Simple, right?
it is a trade of it is not all of them faster chips will be previous arch with improvements or a completely new arch scaled up. Smaller would just be making the same chip with a small die area. Less power comes with a tinier chip or a larger low clocked chip.

It is the opposite of simple but there is an optimum point a prime example of this is Kaveri which completely sucks beyond 3,5GHz for efficiency but does good/great before that.
Quote:
So we’re supposed to be getting 20nm graphics cards next, but the evidence against that happening continues to mount.
Clearly it does not the increase is not that big actually I posted a chart of production costs of the Fermi cards and even with the chart the card wouldn't be more than 20 dollars more expensive. Actually the price of video cards at Nvidia increased dramatically more like 300 dollar on average on high end models early on especially GK104 being gauged for what small chip it actually was.



Clearly he has no idea about actual costs and doesn't even comprehend that smaller chips are less likely to fail so yields per wafer will be higher. And there would also be more chips on the wafer as always great for the small chips.
Quote:
I’m sure you noticed the lack of mention of graphics – but the important part is the performance. TSMC claims 30% higher speed, but that’s compared to their low-power 28nm process! Compared to their high-performance process it would barely be 10% faster, if anything. I believe TSMC’s 28nm HP would likely be faster for graphics cards than their 20nm-SoC.
Here he makes a valid point but that is completely negated by his own idiocy by stating that there would be only a 10% gain in clock.

Clearly speed is determent by 2 things one is the design itself and and the other is clock now even if the clocks gained very little at the same voltage that would still leave us with a chip that can be 1.9x more dense according to TSMC themselves.


I can go on and on but we will infact see 20nm gpus and perhaps not the big ones (yet) but they will be here.
post #57 of 70
Clearly you have no idea that yields have been falling with each new node.

Clearly you don't understand that when talking about process "speed" that MHz is what matters. Obviously you will get faster chips with a lot more shaders at slightly slower speed (duh?). The point is that the wafer cost has increased by so much and that you have to negate the lack of performance by increasing die size (hint: Maxwell). Now imagine Maxwell on 20nm yet without all the optimizations that years of 28nm experience brought. Where is your 10% better performance now? What is the cost for the same performance or worse?

You should try writing an entertaining 2000 word article encompassing process and graphics better btw - be sure to let me know when you do and I'll lend you my critique. thumb.gif
Edited by Jim Dotcom - 3/14/14 at 7:50pm
post #58 of 70
to make it clear I disagree with the article in the OP . I believe Nvidia and AMD will have GPUs at 20nm . Nvidia first in Q3 2014 and AMD later in Q4 2014. The point is that with TSMC 20nm you can cram close to 2x more transistors. But your designs will be more power constrained than with the normal full process node transition. Because TSMC 20nm brings half node like power reductions or speed improvements at same leakage.

That is why you see Nvidia have architected Maxwell with a focus on significantly improving efficiency - perf/watt and perf / sq mm . even at the same 28nm node Nvidia GTX 750 Ti has an impressive perf / sq mm and perf / watt gain. 35% improved perf per core over Kepler is excellent.

so when coupled with a close to doubling of transistors Nvidia GTX 880 can easily double the GTX 680/ GTX 770 perf and be 40% faster than GTX 780 Ti while being in the 300 - 330 sq mm range for die size. i foresee a 3072 - 3200 core , 384 bit memory, 3GB or 6GB card for USD 700+. 20nm is not going to be cheap. if Nvidia can go even higher with 3840 cores I would be impressed. so the enthusiasts better be ready to lighten their wallets thumb.gif
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post #59 of 70
It will only get even harder and more expensive to move to smaller transistor sizes. Someday we will have to start building and testing practical quantum computers.
post #60 of 70
A lot of Maxwell's efficiency is due to the maturity of the node. You just will not see those gains on 20nm for a long time.

Anandtech said it -
Quote:
Finally there’s the lowest of low level optimizations, which is transistor level optimizations. Again NVIDIA hasn’t provided a ton of details here, but they tell us they’ve gone through at the transistor level to squeeze out additional energy efficiency as they could find it. Given that TSMC 28nm is now a very mature process with well understood abilities and quirks, NVIDIA should be able to design and build their circuits to a tighter tolerance now than they would have been able to when working on GK107 over 2 years ago.

That is a big part of Maxwell's efficiency and I expect AMD to see the same kind of gains. There is just no way this is possible on 20nm currently because it isn't well enough understood.
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