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post #21 of 48
Is CoreOS like busybox where they added a bunch of stuff into one program?
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post #22 of 48
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the Mac info gsa700.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsa700 View Post



When I said it's "just another distro", what I meant was that we don't have to use it if we don't want to. They can't make us, we can run sysv init until we die but over time we'll have to deal with the consequences of that choice so I understand the debate.

Actually that isn't quite reality. You may not be forced to use it but you also may have few or no alternatives, so the choice can become the whole "lesser of evils" thing. This has happened before.

Without going into a bullet list of all the many reasons why (unless you're really interested in history, in which case PM me as I doubt many want to know the whole story) OS/2 was vastly superior to Windows in literally everything but marketing. The success of Windows marginalized the superior system to the point that IBM ceased support (and sold it off to eComStation which few have even heard of) and even though it's capability was so awesome that this system from the year 2000 will run on multi CPU/Core 64bit systems with ridiculous amounts of ram, SATA drives, etc. etc. the latest browser for it is Firefox 4 and all other apps are similarly old and destined to be useless very soon. On a much faster scale I paid for Xandros Linux which could use both rpms and debs and just as it seemed poised to go Enterprise, it folded.

The point should be obvious that without user and developer support, a system just withers away. It can take years but it is sad and painful and it happens all the time once the brain drain starts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsa700 View Post

FWIW, FreeBSD will probably run sysv init forever.
One can hope smile.gif but then again who wants to use it on a desktop if hardware support gets ever more difficult? Part of the reason Linux has caught up to BSD and surpassed it is increased hardware support. Sure some can be reverse engineered but that is a slow and painful process without help from the manufacturer. Thus BSD still suffers from substantially reduced hardware support compared to Linux.

I don't yet know if it is good or bad, but I'm convinced this is by no means a trivial change.
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post #23 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsa700 View Post

Is CoreOS like busybox where they added a bunch of stuff into one program?

If you can't hang for the whole video linked in the OP, at least see the website HERE It is far more than busybox.
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post #24 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

If you can't hang for the whole video linked in the OP, at least see the website HERE It is far more than busybox.

I checked out the website after I posted. I'm gonna watch the video now because I'm honestly still missing why this is so controversial, big change always is I suppose.

Maybe this will help Linux.....?
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post #25 of 48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post

But maybe I'm not understanding it because I'm not a coder. redface.gif

One doesn't have to be a coder to enjoy the benefits of community developed Linux. Your analogies were good.

Generalizations tend to bite us "where the sun don't shine" and I was less than clear toward the end of that last post to which you're referring, so now I have to apply a bandaid to the bite. smile.gif

I was thinking of all present Linux being DIY since even Mint still allows for deep changes that Windows won't. I maybe should have used Proprietary vs/ Open but we can see that both coexist in Linux as well as Windows, even though there is still a tendency for Windows users to assume that Open is always somehow inferior. So I haven't found the right words to characterize the difference.

Some of it is just biased perception. There is a video on YouTube where a sidewalk survey was taken and people were told a lie that a laptop running Linux was the not yet released Windows 7 and asked to use it and say if they liked it. Almost all did. I'm confident their answers would be different if they were told the truth, that it was Linux, not Windows.

I suppose the best I can come up with that while standardization can have substantial benefits, it does tend to stifle diversity and competition, both of which are good for consumers for the most part. I really don't know why people rarely complain for example that in the Auto Biz where for example all cars use 12v batteries, why are there hundreds of variations? when theoretically there could be just one.

Even though it turns out it is a Myth that "at least in a dictatorship the trains run on time" that Myth persists because many people are frightened and/or overwhelmed by diversity, thinking it is akin to chaos, and prefer some enforced sense of order.

I hope ol' Benjamin won't turn over in his grave if I paraphrase him and say -

“Those who surrender freedom for order will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” These things aren't gifted, they are earned by responsible action.

To get back more on topic, once there is no such thing as a package manager, and where all applications must be container certified, and where no incremental upgrades are possible but only wholesale system change is supported, Distro ceases to have much meaning. Already the lines are blurring. Just look at how systemd kicks BSD and Hurd kernel Debian to the curb. When Poetering and Sievers say "You're either with us or you're against us" they are not joking. The lines are being drawn and money will likely starve out any stragglers by attrition (loss of development community). Then also the certification process can (and would be!) used to ostracize and minimize competition and how different is that from Windows?

Linux seems poised to "Go Big" and everyone not on board gets to "Go Home". It will be difficult to marginalize Linus but not impossible once the system becomes atomic.... and they do have Greg Kroah-Hartman and several million dollars from investors, including Joe Montana, the ex-footbal player. I don't think he is a Geek so some expert must have advised him this is a good investment, bound to be a winner. Let's hope we can somehow end up winners and not just left in the cold with a house heated by an oil-fired furnace with no more oil available.
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post #26 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsa700 View Post


Maybe this will help Linux.....?

Hasn't so far.
post #27 of 48
Don't want to take over the thread, just clarify a few things
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

@subassy - When people..... scratch that, when I refer to Windows lack of user control I am talking about both the specifics, such as currently in Win7 even logged in as Administrator and even after downloading a "privilege extender" still there is much that is completely disallowed, and

Not sure what you're referring to exactly that isn't allowed. Usually there's a way to do what you want with third party software and various tweaks. Hard to say without specifics. I mean you could be right, I'm not necessarily disagreeing, just saying I can't really comment one way or the other without specifics.
Quote:
also of the general attitude of Microsoft that kind of comes off like Duke Nukem, "Suck it down!". They believe deeply that we only lease the software. The PC is not ours, we just get the privilege of using it..... for a price.

Fair enough. Though I expect this is simply the nature of closed source/commercial software. Once I own a particular PC I actually do whatever I want with it. I don't think any one cares what I do with the hardware once it's on my private property. Especially if said PC is off the internet. Pretty much safe to ignore the EULA at that point.
Quote:
WinPE is Preinstall Environment and as you may know is by no means a full operating system, nor are you free to make it into one. The loophole that got Bart, and subsequent builders by the EULA was that technically on the same box you could not be running the full install, from which the PE image must be derived, and the PE at the same time.

Yes, I know what a pre-install environment is. I wasn't referring to the xp-based PEs gained via EULA loophole though, I was referring to the vista-and-later PE (I call it "VistaPE" -- my own personal nick name for it) that comes with with WAIK - Windows Automated Installation Kit - which is free-as-in-beer from MS.

I should mention at this point I thought we were talking in a context of a hobby-at-home, not in a production/corporate environment.

With the WAIK/VistaPE you can "slipstream" drivers to cover a lot hardware devices (NICs are a big one obviously) and also tweak it put in a GUI, web browser etc. You're right it's not a "full OS" as in getting it to the point of actually sticking in an Office 2007 disc and installing isn't going to work but it is possible to put in the explorer shell, google chrome/firefox and various anti-virus/anti-malware packages. And since all that is possible you can use your imagination on other things/extensions you could use a system with this PE installed on the hard drive (retro game console with console emulators? web browser only station? use XAMPP portable for a web server?). My point isn't that any of this is practical or that there's any reason to do this with VistaPE instead of Linux or that it would be "better" in some way...just that's it's possible and there is in fact some flexibility in Windows if one were to seek it out.
Quote:
Hyper-V Server requires 2 boxes, one with the full (non-free) system and another with the limited standalone. In both cases you still need an MS license and cannot build a free, complete Windows system legally.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. Again apologies if I was not originally clear and also MS is incredibly stupid on naming things: there's Server 2012 Hyper-V and there's Hyper-V server 2012. The second one, Hyper-V Server 2012 R2 does not need a second PC to use it. In fact it can be installed on a thumb drive. Much like VistaPE it can be customized and tweaked to have a GUI and made into a usable system. Since it has the identifier string of server it will present some challenges for day-to-day use (some programs like anti-viruses will balk at being installed on a server for instances and getting there may be some drivers issues) but said challenges aren't any more complex than say...getting optimized video drivers working in Linux. Obviously this wouldn't be done in a production environment but it's you know possible. There is precedence among "windows enthusiasts" for doing these sorts of things in turning server 2k3 into a workstation (there's a still a stickie thread in the windows operating systems forum for this) and there was a 2008 workstation project when vista first came out (I think the idea largely died out when 7 was released).
Quote:
An example pointed out in another thread is that PAE for Windows is crippled for the sole purpose of licensing. Another example might be that it is impossible to get DirectX v11 on XP and for no other reason than to force users to pay to "upgrade" to a "new*" system.

I don't know the real motivations for the PAE 4 gig limit thing. I assumed it was because XP is based on Windows 2000 and that was developed when there were only 32bit chips which do have the 32-bit limitation in memory...and it was too much of a hassle to fix it at the time. Or maybe they just wanted a cut-off point between the old compatibility mode stuff on 32-bit and the future more secure 64-bit stuff (driver signing and a few other kernel-related things). Anyway it's okay to critisize them for this. There was an x64 XP at one point. I assume that was their solution to the 4 gig limit issue.
Quote:
* I put "new" in parenthesis because Microsoft fairly often makes a few basic changes, like adding drivers, and changing the look which normally would be just a Service Pack, but they call it a whole new version and charge for it. One example of that was the Win95 > Win98 debacle.

I've never seen the win95->win98 transition referred to as a "debacle" before. 98 seemed like a normal incremental upgrade to me. Consistent with prior transitions like windows 3->3.1->3.11. This was long before consumer Windows received service packs and I think windows update only came in...I want to say late in 98's life cycle (if it did at all, I don't remember). 98 offered a lot of features in the form of a single purchasable CD at your local CompUSA. This was the ancient times of dialup modems and IE-4-is-great after all wink.gif. Also if you complain about that you should at the same time praise MS for XP SP2 which really should have been a separate paid OS release but was released for free because XP/XP SP1 was such a disaster on so many levels.
Quote:
Incidentally they often use this leverage to control the hardware market as well. Example - choosing to support Intel's USB but not Apple's FireWire when some would argue that FireWire was superior. Notice that Linux has supported both for quite some time. It's not just Microsoft either. Many proprietary companies buy out the competition just to bury the technology rather than have to compete with it.

Macs actually had USB prior to PCs. 98 was the first windows OS that a customer could purchase to include USB support. And it's really a combination of intel, chipset makers, MS and 1001 OEMs in Asia and the rest of the world working together for hardware support. I think USB only really took off when there started to be so many peripherals using USB like mice, keyboards and printers. Seems like firewire was only really used for super-fast hard drive access needed by video editors and was always really expensive. You might say the same thing is happening right now in the thunderbolt vs usb 3 standards war: thunderbolt seems to be almost entirely on Macs and for whatever reason intel and/or apple seem to be holding it back from other PC makers. No fault of MS or anybody else. Except I guess Apple and/or Intel. And it's probably too late now too. I don't think thunderbolt can catch up with USB 3. Also, thunderbolt cables are ~$30 a piece. I mean what the hell. But this is just my view based on my memory and PC hardware podcasts I listen to. I really don't think you can assign much if any blame for the industry acceptance of USB vs firewire on MS.

Quote:
As for compiling kernels I always make a custom kernel but not many do anymore and that's just a small part of the flexibility. Whether installing traditionally from source only or with the aid of a SlackBuild script it is rather common that I enable and disable various features. Only in a very few cases anymore do I directly modify code, but there is literally nothing I am disallowed from (with the exception of a few proprietary addons) even if it is harmful. Not everyone uses or prefers this, but some do, me included.

Well I've never compiled a linux kernel before and most likely won't. I read some where if you do that the patches that are released are on the user to integrate and may or may not work. Personally I'd rather let some one else with more experience and knowledge with such things handle kernel security patches. I mean assuming that's true. I've got better things to do. But to each his own.
Edited by subassy - 3/17/14 at 6:15pm
 
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post #28 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsa700 View Post

I checked out the website after I posted. I'm gonna watch the video now because I'm honestly still missing why this is so controversial, big change always is I suppose.

Maybe this will help Linux.....?

The controversy is largely due to the fact that only recently have the developers begun to reveal the full scope of the plan (they kept moving the goal post so to speak), and still much is left to the imagination until all the parts fall into place. With CoreOS a major block just fell into place.

Well from the website one can see now that there are major benefits to massive servers and developers. Whether or not that "trickles down" to users remains to be seen. Historically, somebody gets trampled when the Big Boys join the game and it's usually the little guy. It could easily go like a scenario in which you discover a huge oil deposit under your garden. Exxon or whoever is more likely to hire a battery of lawyers to get you evicted and buy the land at 10 cents on the dollar than to pay you royalties.

The final question is "Will it still be Linux?".... A question much like the one Athens faced when rumors of an impending Spartan invasion surfaced.
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post #29 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

Distros die all the time and for similar reasons - lack of money and lack of developers. Systemd has won over all the major distros. If they are all relegated to a second or third position because of focus on CoreOS which likely means preferential treatment after they have all become more like each other, who is likely to win out? and who will dry up and blow away?

My bad I wasn't clear on what I meant by Distros. Yes specific Distros can and often do die, but what I was talking about was the whole concept of Distros. People will always not like what they are given and will make their own version of it, it's human nature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

No they don't need to chroot. They can simply Clone to the unbooted partition and then reboot to activate the completely, new, monolithic system. They can do this because CoreOS clusters by default, so the system doesn't go down just because a node does. Also you don't choose to not download the update. It is distributed, like "push". That's one of it's actual benefits. Hundreds of thousands of nodes can be massively upgraded in one simple deploy. Plus if for some reason an upgrade fails, they simply boot the older partition until the new one is fixed. Follow the money. It isn't in desktops.

They way that I understood it, was that they updated the unbooted partion, not the booted one. Unless you are talking about cloning from an image that they "stream" to you. While they might not be forcing updates on you, it still doesn't solve their imagined problem that "incremental updates" are bad. They are still incrementally updating because it requires a reboot to get into the updated system. For me to consider something non incremental it would have to be like kGraft and update completely without a reboot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

Some of it is just biased perception. There is a video on YouTube where a sidewalk survey was taken and people were told a lie that a laptop running Linux was the not yet released Windows 7 and asked to use it and say if they liked it. Almost all did. I'm confident their answers would be different if they were told the truth, that it was Linux, not Windows.

I would take that with a grain of salt. Microsoft did the same thing with Windows Vista and "Project Longhorn". They convinced people that they were trying the new and improved Windows and they liked it even though Microsoft changed very little. The general public eats up the "new and improved" slogan. So much so that the US Government has laws that make companies have to actually change their product before they are allowed to market it as "new and improved".
post #30 of 48
Windows supported USB with the "OSR2" release of windows 95 which I believe was sometime in 1996.

The Windows 98 "debacle" would most likely be because MS "integrated" internet explorer 4 into the OS at a very low level which is why is was mostly a crash fest from the day it went public. This was also the main thing that crushed Netscape but that's for another day....

As far as Systemd and coreOS, Fedora and Debian and such aren't going to use coreOS are they? Isn't it just Systemd so they can then become containers or whatever to run ON coreOS?

That video is really hard to listen to, the audio is horrible and his accent just makes it worse.

I got about 30 minutes in before rage quitting. biggrin.gif
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Goliath
(13 items)
 
fBSD
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pfSense Box
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 4770 Gigabyte z87x-ud3h Intel HD4600 G.Skill Ripjaws X 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Crucial M500 Pioneer Blu-ray Burner Swiftech Polaris Linux Mint 
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Intel Core i7 2700k Asus z68 Deluxe Gen 3 Gt 610 8 Gb Samsung Magic Memory 
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