New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Distros - R.I.P ? - Page 5

post #41 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post

LSB isn't followed all that strictly and only some versions of some distros are LSD certified
The distros that are LSB certified do follow LSB strictly. If your issue is that not all distros are LSB then I'd argue that's a good thing - we have a standard platform to target but also flexibility of other distros to try new ideas. Best of both worlds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post

, and in itself LSB isn't a standard that yields interoperability where it's needed (ABI)
The ABI's on Linux are exactly the same regardless of the distro. Maybe you're referring to version numbers, but LSB cannot solve that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post

, because RPM isn't the standard install executable fileformat. I don't understand why Linux distros aren't using ELF.
RPM's are not executable but it is the standard install file format. Even Debian (and Ubuntu) support RPMs. And installing files via ELF makes no sense what-so-ever. We already have package managers, we don't need the packages to be executable as well. That would be a step backwards for security, portability and usability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post

No it's not. One thing the FOSS community excels at, is conforming to open standards, and GNU/Linux needs a user orientation standard. GNU/Linux will forever be 1-2% of all desktop computers as long as there's no standard.
We have standard desktop toolkits: Qt, GTK, OpenGL, Xorg (and, soon, Wayland), dbus, etc. All you're after is a standardised desktop GUI and that's counter-productive since everyone has different preferences and any desktop environment is already compatible with any other desktop environment.

All you're doing to suggesting we force Linux into breaking stuff that's already working (and, in my opinion, it's greatest asset) to serve your own narrow view that every desktop should be a carbon copy of every other desktop. People are different; we don't want the same thing as everyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post

In an ideal world where every human is an adept software developer, that would be the norm. GNU/Linux has to adjust itself to reality.
Your experience with build systems is very limited if you think that. Give Arch's AUR or FreeBSD ports a try then tell me that you need to be an adept software developer to use source based packages. tongue.gif
(though I'm not saying the average desktop user should be installing everything from source either; just that you're as disconnected from reality as the argument you're countering)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post

Why not? Microsoft must go out of business, the sooner the better. We can have one standardised, mainstream GNU/Linux distro, and then you developers can do whatever you want and tinker around with your source code compilations and communities and whatever you prefer. It'll hardly hurt GNU/Linux if it becomes mainstream.
Such much conjecture in that comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post

As for free/open Windows, there's already ReactOS, and as soon as it's stable, it'll be far more relevant in a month or two than GNU/Linux has ever been in 20+ years. That's how counterproductive the average quasi-elitist Linux geek's attitude is.
You do realise that ReactOS has been around for 2 decades and is still less usable than Linux?
Trying to build a Windows clone is the wrong solution to competing against Windows. To even suggest that as an option shows you have no idea what you're talking about.
Edited by Plan9 - 5/4/14 at 6:26am
post #42 of 48
I think you're missing what many Linux developers care about, which is embedded systems and not the desktop. The majority of the current kernel work is focused on bringing in support for new hardware used in embedded systems, like phones, tablets, automotive, networking, set top boxes, tvs, etc. These are the areas Linux already has its self deeply rooted in, and is the dominate player. Since this is the direction of the kernel, many distro are trying to expand their support for ARM. There are also several more interesting areas for Linux besides the desktop that people decide to focus on, like cloud computing, visualization, and containers. My point being is that there are few people working on bring Linux to the masses on the desktop, hence why there is little standardization.
BlackMesa
(14 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Phenom II x6 Gigabyte Gigabyte 8gb G.Skill 
Hard DriveHard DriveOSMonitor
OCZ Vertex2 Sata II Coorsair Force GS Sata III Debian (testing) Shimian 27" 
KeyboardMouse
Filco w/ blue cherries Who needs a mouse? 
  hide details  
Reply
BlackMesa
(14 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Phenom II x6 Gigabyte Gigabyte 8gb G.Skill 
Hard DriveHard DriveOSMonitor
OCZ Vertex2 Sata II Coorsair Force GS Sata III Debian (testing) Shimian 27" 
KeyboardMouse
Filco w/ blue cherries Who needs a mouse? 
  hide details  
Reply
post #43 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangerousHobo View Post

I think you're missing what many Linux developers care about, which is embedded systems and not the desktop. The majority of the current kernel work is focused on bringing in support for new hardware used in embedded systems, like phones, tablets, automotive, networking, set top boxes, tvs, etc. These are the areas Linux already has its self deeply rooted in, and is the dominate player. Since this is the direction of the kernel, many distro are trying to expand their support for ARM. There are also several more interesting areas for Linux besides the desktop that people decide to focus on, like cloud computing, visualization, and containers. My point being is that there are few people working on bring Linux to the masses on the desktop, hence why there is little standardization.

That's not true either. There's been a great deal of kernel work both for desktops (graphics drivers being a biggie, but also memory handling, scheduling, etc) and servers (the TCP/IP stack has had massive tweaks done for optimising performance on web farms). And there's a lot of influential people who do work on user land for desktop Linux (Wayland, being just one prominent example)
post #44 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post

That's how counterproductive the average quasi-elitist Linux geek's attitude is.

Yeah... doh.gif

Any argument you could have made pretty much got killed by that last sentence.
post #45 of 48
The biggest things getting worked on in the kernel are: expanding ARM support, improving scheduling (better real-time support, which mainly matters for embedded systems), networking (for the cloud stack, but also improving TCP/IP stack), NAND flash memory (support, block ease, PEB management), NAND filesystems (UBI/UBIFS, JFFS2, F2FS, etc). A lot of that matters the most to embedded systems (which is a huge field).

I'm not saying that's the only thing that's being worked, it's just what I see the most on LKML and it is a bit bias because that's what I work on day to day.
I guess I should note I'm only talking about kernel land. User space is a different story, and is where I would place things like Wayland. I see a pretty even split between server world and desktop world when talking about user space. There are a lot of influential people working on linux, both user space and kernel space.
The big the players in kernel space don't care much about the desktop (TI, Intel, FreeScale, Qualcomm, Toshiba, Broadcom). That's not to say that there aren't companies that care about the desktop (Red Hat, Canonical, Novell, etc, etc.)
BlackMesa
(14 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Phenom II x6 Gigabyte Gigabyte 8gb G.Skill 
Hard DriveHard DriveOSMonitor
OCZ Vertex2 Sata II Coorsair Force GS Sata III Debian (testing) Shimian 27" 
KeyboardMouse
Filco w/ blue cherries Who needs a mouse? 
  hide details  
Reply
BlackMesa
(14 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Phenom II x6 Gigabyte Gigabyte 8gb G.Skill 
Hard DriveHard DriveOSMonitor
OCZ Vertex2 Sata II Coorsair Force GS Sata III Debian (testing) Shimian 27" 
KeyboardMouse
Filco w/ blue cherries Who needs a mouse? 
  hide details  
Reply
post #46 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangerousHobo View Post

The biggest things getting worked on in the kernel are: expanding ARM support, improving scheduling (better real-time support, which mainly matters for embedded systems), networking (for the cloud stack, but also improving TCP/IP stack), NAND flash memory (support, block ease, PEB management), NAND filesystems (UBI/UBIFS, JFFS2, F2FS, etc). A lot of that matters the most to embedded systems (which is a huge field).
I'm not disputing that there's work happening for embedded systems, but networking and real time support are most definitely not just for embedded systems (I'm really not sure what you mean by "cloud stack" since cloud computing is a concept rather than a physical thing - but networking is definitely a key point for servers). As for real time kernels, this is actually very important for desktop workstations as well; if your business is in multimedia (video editing / rendering or music production / engineering).

I'm not sure where you got those items from (as in being definitely the most active items in development), but there's a lot of work going on with desktop graphic drivers at the moment too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangerousHobo View Post

User space is a different story, and is where I would place things like Wayland.
You're just reiterating me now tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangerousHobo View Post

The big the players in kernel space don't care much about the desktop (TI, Intel, FreeScale, Qualcomm, Toshiba, Broadcom). That's not to say that there aren't companies that care about the desktop (Red Hat, Canonical, Novell, etc, etc.)
Oh right, you're just going by lines of code committed to the kernel then? In that case the embedded sector does win out; but that's only due to how bespoke the market is (ie two RISC CPUs of the same basic architecture aren't usually compatible with one another; unlike desktop systems which all have the same basic instruction sets) and thus the extra work required to tailor to each bit of hardware.

However I don't think that's the same thing as saying that developers mainly care about embedded systems; just that more work is required to release an embedded platform.
post #47 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post

Why not? Microsoft must go out of business, the sooner the better. We can have one standardised, mainstream GNU/Linux distro, and then you developers can do whatever you want and tinker around with your source code compilations and communities and whatever you prefer. It'll hardly hurt GNU/Linux if it becomes mainstream.

This sounds like it would make a good Animal Farm story... Drive away MS, replace it with an organization that will "standardize" Linux, and in 10 years, we'll be right back where we started.
post #48 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post


LSB isn't followed all that strictly and only some versions of some distros are LSD certified, and in itself LSB isn't a standard that yields interoperability where it's needed (ABI), because RPM isn't the standard install executable fileformat. I don't understand why Linux distros aren't using ELF.
Why? It's a superior concept.
No it's not. One thing the FOSS community excels at, is conforming to open standards, and GNU/Linux needs a user orientation standard. GNU/Linux will forever be 1-2% of all desktop computers as long as there's no standard.
In an ideal world where every human is an adept software developer, that would be the norm. GNU/Linux has to adjust itself to reality.
Why not? Microsoft must go out of business, the sooner the better. We can have one standardised, mainstream GNU/Linux distro, and then you developers can do whatever you want and tinker around with your source code compilations and communities and whatever you prefer. It'll hardly hurt GNU/Linux if it becomes mainstream.

As for free/open Windows, there's already ReactOS, and as soon as it's stable, it'll be far more relevant in a month or two than GNU/Linux has ever been in 20+ years. That's how counterproductive the average quasi-elitist Linux geek's attitude is.

 

I hate to argue with a fool, cause people can't tell you apart, but i feel this post his filled with enough ignorance to warrant such a transgression.

 

I would argue that you really have no idea what you are saying. you mention that it should be using elf, the last time i checked linux does use the elf for  binary applications. you obviously also have never installed a package from the wild on any of the modern linux systems, if you do not realize that most if not all package managers out there, have a installer. in ubuntu i click on a .deb file, it loads it up gdebi or software center, which walks me thru the installation process (if i'm feeling lazy that day, if not i'll use the command line install, dpkg).  Or do you mean our packages should be self executable without the package manager installer?

 

what standard would you enforce onto all the distros? remember you are approaching an age old argument, that goes all the way back to when patrick looked at sls saw it had issues and said to himself "you know what, i can do better", or ian murdock woke up one morning turned on his computer and said to himself "you know what, there should be a stability standard when it comes to a distro, one that goes thru rigorious testing, patching, and slow to adopt new things, if it isn't broken why fix it, i would like to stay on the same software versions for at least 4 years, cause that is stability in my mind." or when the boys over at redhat got together in apartment some where, huddled around their 486's and said "you know what, we can make a buttload of money if we just standardized this crap". I would ask, which distro has gotten it right or is more right than the others...

 

again, you bring up the "ignorance is bliss" argument we've heard time and time again. I would not hand over a bulldozer to some one who has never used or was trained in one. I hope to god the pilot on my flight has been trained properly and isn't just some guy who woke up that morning deciding "i don't need no stinkin training to fly".  why aren't people expected to even know the basics of their computer? how is that my problem they can't be bothered to learn? i struggled in 1998 to install redhat onto my computer, but i eventually did learn it, why isn't some one else expect to learn when i had to? not every tool/machine/etc out there in the world should be one button push simple, i just don't understand why OS's should be held to that absurd standard either. i would agree that there are things in linux that needs some fine polishing, but to any one who is willing to LEARN (if you didn't notice that is the keyword here) it, will be successful with it.

 

and for your last paragraph, what would we have to gain if MS went out of business? is some one upset about metro or the removal of the start menu? or does it go back further, mad that a 12 year old windows XP no longer being supported? or is it the DRM on xbox 1 keeping you up at night? you give no reason as to why, other than it must. pft, reactOS, i've seen better attempts in movies to thru flash animation to recreate windows. its been in development for a very long time, it probably will be for even longer. it will never be as good as windows, and it will always be 12 steps behind it. if it does make any waves if it is ever launched as stable, they will be minor. as to most people in the world, their computer comes with windows so it is already free.

 

to say i disagree with you, would be an understatement. I am a developer, some standards will work, while many of them are just some one's idea of what the right way to do something. like my brother says about opinions, i say about standards...  I 

Bazinga Punk
(12 items)
 
ooh shiny!
(6 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Xeon 3440 AsRock P55 extreme Evga 8800 GT 512 MB Gskill Ripjaws 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Western Digital Blue Antec Khuler 620 Ubuntu 11.10 Asus vw264H 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
GIGABYTE KM7600 CORSAIR TX 650 Cooler Master 590 GIGABYTE GM-M6800 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core I5 6500 Gigabyte z170xp-SLI Nvidia 970gtx Corsair 16gb ddr4 2666mhz  
Hard DriveOS
250gb Samsung Evo 850 Windows 10 & Ubuntu 15.10 
  hide details  
Reply
Bazinga Punk
(12 items)
 
ooh shiny!
(6 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Xeon 3440 AsRock P55 extreme Evga 8800 GT 512 MB Gskill Ripjaws 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Western Digital Blue Antec Khuler 620 Ubuntu 11.10 Asus vw264H 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
GIGABYTE KM7600 CORSAIR TX 650 Cooler Master 590 GIGABYTE GM-M6800 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core I5 6500 Gigabyte z170xp-SLI Nvidia 970gtx Corsair 16gb ddr4 2666mhz  
Hard DriveOS
250gb Samsung Evo 850 Windows 10 & Ubuntu 15.10 
  hide details  
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Linux, Unix