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[solved] Distro suggestions - work desktop, Arch not picking up NIC - Page 4

post #31 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

Arch seems to disagree with you...
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/FAQ#Q.29_What_distribution_is_Arch_based_on.3F

At one time I saw one of those Distro Family Tree graphs and it was stated that Arch was forked from Slackware. Apparently that and I were mistaken, not that it really matters any. In this case it was just one more reason I asked, right or wrong. Now I know the truth.
Edited by enorbet2 - 3/21/14 at 8:54am
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post #32 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

I really don't see much point in a package manager without dependency management. Keeping track of the installed packages and having an easy way to install packages is nice and all, but pretty useless on it's own without resolving those packages dependencies, fix broken dependencies, or other many features revolving around what all the packages need to run are.

The point is simplicity. There are no dependency issues within a full install and when adding anything extra via slackbuilds and required dependencies are listed and linked. If you mess up the worst that can occur is the new app won't run. The system is never in danger. Also by installing with a slackbuild, a text script, one can enable or disable various features - really sweet. Additionally, though it may take some time to manually install a few listed dependencies it is often less time than restoring dependencies or fixing broken ones.

A case in point - On most Debian based distros uninstalling cups will remove some 300 packages which will then be restored for all the things that get broken by that. I would be curious to know, on a test of course, how many packages would get removed (and restored) in Arch if you test-case uninstall cups.
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post #33 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

The point is simplicity. There are no dependency issues within a full install and when adding anything extra via slackbuilds and required dependencies are listed and linked. If you mess up the worst that can occur is the new app won't run. The system is never in danger. Also by installing with a slackbuild, a text script, one can enable or disable various features - really sweet. Additionally, though it may take some time to manually install a few listed dependencies it is often less time than restoring dependencies or fixing broken ones.

A case in point - On most Debian based distros uninstalling cups will remove some 300 packages which will then be restored for all the things that get broken by that. I would be curious to know, on a test of course, how many packages would get removed (and restored) in Arch if you test-case uninstall cups.

You don't seem to understand package managers then. Very seldom do they break other package dependencies. And you often have multiple ways of uninstalling, and if you purposely flag the package manager to forcefully uninstall all dependencies regardless if they're depended on by another package, then you're an idiot plain and simple. Most people don't uninstall like that though, they uninstall the main package and the packages that are no longer needed ( ie: if another package still needs X and Y dependencies, then it won't be touched ).

Here's pacman's documentation for you; both usages here, underline is the normal way, bold is the idiot way.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/pacman#Usage
Quote:
Removing packages

To remove a single package, leaving all of its dependencies installed:

# pacman -R package_name

To remove a package and its dependencies which are not required by any other installed package:

# pacman -Rs package_name

To remove a package, its dependencies and all the packages that depend on the target package:
Warning: This operation is recursive, and must be used with care since it can remove many potentially needed packages.

# pacman -Rsc package_name

To remove a package, which is required by another package, without removing the dependent package:

# pacman -Rdd package_name

Pacman saves important configuration files when removing certain applications and names them with the extension: .pacsave. To prevent the creation of these backup files use the -n option:

# pacman -Rn package_name

Note: Pacman will not remove configurations that the application itself creates (for example "dotfiles" in the home folder).

It really doesn't get any simpler than not having to worry about dependency resolution, breakage, or really anything to do with dependencies.
Edited by Shrak - 3/21/14 at 9:07am
post #34 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

At one time I saw one of those Distro Family Tree graphs and it was stated that Arch was forked from Slackware. Apparently that and I were mistaken, not that it really matters any. In this case it was just one more reason I asked, right or wrong.

this one? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Linux_Distribution_Timeline.svg

I do actually agree with you that it doesn't matter though. And I think you're question was worth asking regardless of how Arch was formed because knowing me (from our discussions) and the specifications given in this thread, Slackware is a sensible suggestion smile.gif
post #35 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

this one? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Linux_Distribution_Timeline.svg
I do actually agree with you that it doesn't matter though. And I think you're question was worth asking regardless of how Arch was formed because knowing me (from our discussions) and the specifications given in this thread, Slackware is a sensible suggestion smile.gif

It was that sort of graph but obviously not that one since that clearly shows Arch all by itself as a progenitor of others, not a fork of Slackware. In that one it's just pictured close to Slackware, maybe because as I understand it, Arch developers were fairly hardcore Unix boys and cared barely a whit for the Debian and RedHat ways of doing things. Also there is this I found today, so apparently the graph and my assumption weren't entirely groundless - not technically a fork, just a major influence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchWiki 
The early years

Judd Vinet, a Canadian programmer and occasional guitarist, began developing Arch Linux in early 2001. Its first formal release, Arch Linux 0.1, was on March 11, 2002. Inspired by the elegant simplicity of Slackware, Polish Linux Distribution, and CRUX, and yet disappointed with their lack of package management at the time; Vinet built his own distribution on similar principles as those distros. But, he also wrote a package management program called pacman, to automatically handle package installation, removal, and upgrades.

Obviously that points up that for him the package manager was a very big deal and he did a really good job of making a good one. Even in 2008 many distros commonly broke from dependency resolving especially in wholesale system upgrades. Arch was one of the first to provide some versatile override solutions.
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post #36 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

You don't seem to understand package managers then. Very seldom do they break other package dependencies. And you often have multiple ways of uninstalling, and if you purposely flag the package manager to forcefully uninstall all dependencies regardless if they're depended on by another package, then you're an idiot plain and simple. Most people don't uninstall like that though, they uninstall the main package and the packages that are no longer needed ( ie: if another package still needs X and Y dependencies, then it won't be touched ).

Here's pacman's documentation for you; both usages here, underline is the normal way, bold is the idiot way.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/pacman#Usage
It really doesn't get any simpler than not having to worry about dependency resolution, breakage, or really anything to do with dependencies.

I know I need to update my Rig Profile since both Studio Ubuntu and OpenSuse are now the latest systemd versions and I should really add SolydK, and I also know it isn't likely that anyone keeps track of all the distros others have run, but do you really imagine I don't understand package managers? Aside from the above, just for the record I installed Corel Linux when it first came out and paid for 3 versions of the follow-up Xandros whose package manager could handle both debs and rpms. Do you suppose I paid real money and let them sit idle? There is not one major distro I haven't run and I don't mean just a look-see either. I used almost all of them for hundreds of hours. I have plenty of experience with package managers besides Slackware's.

We get newbs on here who will just let the defaults rip. Thankfully package managers have gotten good enough that the number has vastly reduced but there are still "Help! After Upgrade My Linux Won't Boot" posts around. Fortunately, they don't tend to be capable of installing and administering Arch or Slackware (although a few will learn enough to add a repository that will break stuff in their "user-friendly" distro).

Also, seldom != never. I've been using Linux since 1998 and Slackware since 1999 and have never broken a dependency in Slackware.
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post #37 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

I know I need to update my Rig Profile since both Studio Ubuntu and OpenSuse are now the latest systemd versions and I should really add SolydK, and I also know it isn't likely that anyone keeps track of all the distros others have run, but do you really imagine I don't understand package managers? Aside from the above, just for the record I installed Corel Linux when it first came out and paid for 3 versions of the follow-up Xandros whose package manager could handle both debs and rpms. Do you suppose I paid real money and let them sit idle? There is not one major distro I haven't run and I don't mean just a look-see either. I used almost all of them for hundreds of hours. I have plenty of experience with package managers besides Slackware's.

We get newbs on here who will just let the defaults rip. Thankfully package managers have gotten good enough that the number has vastly reduced but there are still "Help! After Upgrade My Linux Won't Boot" posts around. Fortunately, they don't tend to be capable of installing and administering Arch or Slackware (although a few will learn enough to add a repository that will break stuff in their "user-friendly" distro).

Also, seldom != never. I've been using Linux since 1998 and Slackware since 1999 and have never broken a dependency in Slackware.

I have all of huddlers crap hidden / turned off anyways, so I can't see the rigs. I too have been using Linux since 98/99 ( Mandrake ) and have used about every distribution out there. I have never broken a dependency either. I have had 1 system break from updating, albeit that was from my own ignorance and not reading Archs news page first ( filesystem update, I stupidly decided to use the -f flag to force the update ), and not technically from the package manager itself but what I told it to do. The only other breakages I've had have been caused by me and my curiosity to go deeper or to add my own hacks to multiple programs or try to remove things I didn't feel was needed. I have also paid for distributions.

Now, all of that **** means absolutely nothing if you think removing cups with a package manager is going to remove all of the dependencies that cups shares with other programs. It won't. And you saying that clearly says you don't understand package managers. You may have used many and all of them, but that doesn't mean you used them properly. Especially so if you've been letting them forcefully and recursively remove shared dependencies and break your systems. And it's pointless to try to talk about how things were back in the day as we aren't back in the day any more.

Also, I'll take my seldom breaks for the extreme ease of use of having dependency resolution. Because you wanted to go with the ease of use or simplicity argument, and while managing your own dependencies is easy, not having to even think about them is that much easier.

And newbs tend to be able to break anything, no matter how safe you think it is. I've honestly gone to my boss several times and told her to fire the idiots that we hire that are fresh out of college and just get me a couple of monkey's. It'd be cheaper, systems wouldn't break as often, and we can pay them in bananas. I'd also get to play with monkey's all day, but that's a different topic. They're fun to play with though. All because these kids have no real experience, they have what the schools taught them, but no actual experience, and they break things constantly. It's me and 1 other guy that spend most of our day fixing their screw ups than we do actual work. So yeah, newbs can break anything and I wouldn't expect any distribution to be able to full withstand them.
Edited by Shrak - 3/21/14 at 12:34pm
post #38 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

I have all of huddlers crap hidden / turned off anyways, so I can't see the rigs. I too have been using Linux since 98/99 ( Mandrake ) and have used about every distribution out there. I have never broken a dependency either. I have had 1 system break from updating, albeit that was from my own ignorance and not reading Archs news page first ( filesystem update, I stupidly decided to use the -f flag to force the update ), and not technically from the package manager itself but what I told it to do. The only other breakages I've had have been caused by me and my curiosity to go deeper or to add my own hacks to multiple programs or try to remove things I didn't feel was needed. I have also paid for distributions.

Now, all of that **** means absolutely nothing if you think removing cups with a package manager is going to remove all of the dependencies that cups shares with other programs. It won't. And you saying that clearly says you don't understand package managers. You may have used many and all of them, but that doesn't mean you used them properly. Especially so if you've been letting them forcefully and recursively remove shared dependencies and break your systems. And it's pointless to try to talk about how things were back in the day as we aren't back in the day any more.

You didn't need to list your credentials because I didn't just say you don't know what your talking about. If I don't always get your point, I don't assume it's because you're an idiot or "used things improperly". Understood?

Of course I didn't expect anyone would actually remove 300 dependencies, aside from rank newbs. The point was as I stated, simplicity, and the very fact that something as basic as cups even has 300 dependencies is a clue to the lengths that distros have to go to, to accommodate dependency resolution.
A few examples of problems this creates for some distributions are:

not being able to use a kernel from kernel.org because of all the patches required
not being able to use a driver from the manufacturer, having to wait for the distro devs to make a new DKMS
not being able to install from some .bin and .run installers
not being able to safely use some repositories without considerable research
not being able to easily compile from source


These aren't all true for all distros. Also not all are important to me and maybe none are important to you but they are, in fact, tradeoffs, important to some, negating the idea that a package manager that doesn't do like yours does is useless to anyone.
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post #39 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

You didn't need to list your credentials because I didn't just say you don't know what your talking about. If I don't always get your point, I don't assume it's because you're an idiot or "used things improperly". Understood?

I never called you an idiot.

I said if you tell a package manager to purposely break your system then complain that it broke it, you might be one. And that would definitely be using something improperly at that point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post

The point was as I stated, simplicity, and the very fact that something as basic as cups even has 300 dependencies is a clue to the lengths that distros have to go to, to accommodate dependency resolution.

It's not the distributions responsibility to deal with dependency resolution. That's the package managers job. If the package manager is doing it's job correctly, dependency resolution isn't a problem or any strain.

Let's put it like this. When you build from scratch, you have a list of dependencies and dependencies for your dependencies. All you need is that list inside of a .deb, .rpm, PKGBUILD or whatever your manager takes and it deals with the rest. Plain and simple.

I think you're stuck back in 2006 with the rest of this though so I'm not going to bother going any further with it.


Also
Quote:
not technically a fork, just a major influence.

^ Fixed that for you. Really, all that article said was those distributions influenced him, in no specific order or importance.
Edited by Shrak - 3/21/14 at 6:49pm
post #40 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

I never called you an idiot.
I said if you tell a package manager to purposely break your system then complain that it broke it, you might be one. And that would definitely be using something improperly at that point.

Since you never apparently considered that I never claimed to have broken a system or that anyone else but a noob would, and since you never considered that I was making a point about complexity (just like I stated) and further since all I saw was 2 perjoratives and no alternatives - effectively you issued an "if" statement without an "else" condition, therefore the conclusion was assumed in the premise. Example - Unless you really didn't understand what I tried to illustrate, you were just being snarky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

Let's put it like this. When you build from scratch, you have a list of dependencies and dependencies for your dependencies. All you need is that list inside of a .deb, .rpm, PKGBUILD or whatever your manager takes and it deals with the rest. Plain and simple.

Assuming you need to lecture me on something this basic just furthers the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrak View Post

I think you're stuck back in 2006 with the rest of this though so I'm not going to bother going any further with it.

Now it is simply undeniable. You have a common prejudice against Slackware (that it's way behind the times, among other things old) and you extend that to me. I can't deduce vice-versa since you don't know me but claim to know Slackware. I don't know if it is "Internet Personal", just your natural demeanor, or if you feel you have to defend your favorite distro against even a suggestion of something else. This is also not the first time that you take a pot-shot and then bail, hoping to get the last word. After 3 posts in which I made no accusations or even implications toward you, and merely made an observation and stated an opinion, that is clearly a case of forgone conclusion and closed-mindedness, so now it's my turn. There is no point in talking to you on this matter.
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