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[oculusvr] Oculus Rift Development Kit 2 Announced - Page 14

post #131 of 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by routek View Post

Palmer saying 90-120fps is a bit alarming for image quality.
Actually 90-120fps is quite accurate for a very, very, very dramatic (order-of-magnitude) improvement in motion clarity.

Refer to this LightBoost graph:



Low-persistence requires high refresh rates to be flicker free (e.g. CRT 85Hz and up), and the same is for the flicker-driven low-persistence OLED.

Non-flicker displays are heavily bottlenecked in persistence:
60fps@60Hz standard LCD = 1/60sec full persistence = 16.7ms of motion blur
120fps@120Hz standard LCD = 1/120sec full persistence = 8.3ms of motion blur

But with strobing, you can reduce persistence without raising refresh rates:
4ms strobe flash + black period between refreshes = 4ms persistence = 4ms of motion blur
2ms strobe flash + black period between refreshes = 2ms persistence = 2ms of motion blur
1ms strobe flash + black period between refreshes = 1ms persistence = 1ms of motion blur

CRT 60fps@60Hz has long had less motion blur than LCD non-strobed 120fps@120Hz. However, 60Hz CRT's flickers a lot.
You also need framerate==stroberate==refreshrate for motion perfection.

TL;DR: You need ~85fps@85Hz minimum for ultrasharp motion without low-persistence flicker drawbacks.
post #132 of 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdrejhon View Post

Actually 90-120fps is quite accurate for a very, very, very dramatic (order-of-magnitude) improvement in motion clarity.

TL;DR: You need ~85fps@85Hz minimum for ultrasharp motion without low-persistence flicker drawbacks.

Given that the OR DK2 is 75Hz / 72Hz / 60Hz with 2ms / 3ms / full persistence and presuming that 75Hz and 2ms go hand in hand, how far off from ideal do you think that would be in regards to eliminating blur?

Additionally, since it is only 75Hz, will there most likely be visible flicker issues?
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post #133 of 248
I remember them saying somewhere that they would not release a 1080p version of the development kit as for developing games 720p was more than enough. I wonder why they changed their policy.
post #134 of 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by iARDAs View Post

I remember them saying somewhere that they would not release a 1080p version of the development kit as for developing games 720p was more than enough. I wonder why they changed their policy.

I think the addition of positional tracking for developers to play with was the main reason for DK2, not just the resolution upgrade.
post #135 of 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by iARDAs View Post

I remember them saying somewhere that they would not release a 1080p version of the development kit as for developing games 720p was more than enough. I wonder why they changed their policy.

They had a HD prototype which was basically DK1 with a 1080p panel. They probably said they wouldn't release that (which would have been pointless) but now they have new features (positional tracking) that they need devs to implement into games before CV1 launch, and the much higher DPI display, coupled with low persistence, also sells VR much better than DK1 could. DK2 also has an in-built latency tester which should help devs, whereas it was a $100 add-on for DK1.

post #136 of 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdrejhon View Post

Actually 90-120fps is quite accurate for a very, very, very dramatic (order-of-magnitude) improvement in motion clarity.

Refer to this LightBoost graph:



Low-persistence requires high refresh rates to be flicker free (e.g. CRT 85Hz and up), and the same is for the flicker-driven low-persistence OLED.

Non-flicker displays are heavily bottlenecked in persistence:
60fps@60Hz standard LCD = 1/60sec full persistence = 16.7ms of motion blur
120fps@120Hz standard LCD = 1/120sec full persistence = 8.3ms of motion blur

But with strobing, you can reduce persistence without raising refresh rates:
4ms strobe flash + black period between refreshes = 4ms persistence = 4ms of motion blur
2ms strobe flash + black period between refreshes = 2ms persistence = 2ms of motion blur
1ms strobe flash + black period between refreshes = 1ms persistence = 1ms of motion blur

CRT 60fps@60Hz has long had less motion blur than LCD non-strobed 120fps@120Hz. However, 60Hz CRT's flickers a lot.
You also need framerate==stroberate==refreshrate for motion perfection.

TL;DR: You need ~85fps@85Hz minimum for ultrasharp motion without low-persistence flicker drawbacks.

Yes I understand. I've been horrified by LCDs these past ten years and said before how very much I'm on John Carmacks page but I wonder with so many being impressed with the HD prototype that they might be sacrifcing much image quality trying to achieve 85fps+. Remember devs have to not have tearing buffer issues and other glitches in VR, these would ruin an experience also., So to have a super solid game at such a high frame rate requires a big trade off.

it would also throw them quite a bit out of sync with non VR games graphically. Games running at 30-60fps have much more resource to make the graphics pretty, they also have room for some slowdown, tearing etc which helps keep the rest of the game looking better. VR is already on the back foot at 60fps requiring a tear glitch free experience. 120fps is huge mill stone to carry.
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post #137 of 248
VR games don't need lots of pretty graphics to be compelling experiences. Playing Minecraft with DK1 was amazing due to the sense of scale and being "in the game".

From what I understand, high FPS is a big part of reducing simulator sickness and personally I would gladly sacrifice eye candy for a more comfortable experience. With DK1, I couldn't use it for more than an hour or so without feeling slightly sick to my stomach.
post #138 of 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by routek View Post

might be sacrifcing much image quality trying to achieve 85fps+.
In order to allow a frame rate matching the refresh rate, reducing static detail level actually improves full-motion detail when it comes to moving around in VR, since motion clarity becomes magnified when framerates matches refreshrate on a low-persistence display. During VR, the screen is always in panning motion when you're moving your head around, and so you've got high def graphics that are often totally lost in motion blur (Even on a Titan with Ultra game details, the screens goes VHS-blurry during pans even on the best 144Hz monitors in non-strobe-mode). So you notch the detail back a tiny bit, to maintain the framerates matching refreshrates necessary for the ultra-sharp nausea-free low-persistence zero-stutter, zero-blur, zero-tearing experience, and then with a little bit of proper low latency logic (to prevent high lag during VSYNC ON situations), you've solved a lot (albiet not necessarily all) of VR problems.

There's no difference in motion blur during 2ms persistence 75fps@75Hz, versus 2ms persistence 120fps@120Hz, except there's less stroboscopic effects / less visible flicker / lower VSYNC ON latency / more picture brightness headroom higher refresh rates (during low-persistence impulsed/strobed operation)

I think this could be solved by letting any future low-persistence VR displays could have a wide choice of refresh rates (e.g. 75Hz, 85Hz, 100Hz, 120Hz), so people can choose a lower refresh rate or higher refresh rate. 75Hz is only 25% more than 60Hz, which is more manageable. Those who have plenty of GPU power, can go for the 120Hz for the fuller experience, while 75Hz for the more GPU-friendly experience while achieving the proper low-persistence experience. OLED's are capable of multiple refresh rates, so this capability can be provided.

Technological capability for refresh-rate-flexible variable-persistence is already here. For example, BENQ XL Z-Series Version 2 is refresh rate multisync, capable of low persistence (strobing) all the way from 50Hz through 144Hz (essentially in 1Hz increments), with adjustable persistence from 0.5ms through 5.0ms (via Blur Busters Strobe Utility -- screenshot shows variable persistence). OLEDs could easily be made to also do refresh-rate-flexible adjustable-persistence (any refreshrate, any persistence). The limiting factor is just simply light output; shorter persistence requires cramming more light output in the shorter frame visibility time. You thus choose your own refresh rate & preferred persistence based on your graphics horsepower and specific game. Playing CS:GO? Can choose 120Hz with 1.5ms persistence. Playing Titanfall 2 or Crysis 4 at Ultra detail? Can choose 75Hz with 3ms persistence, etc. You can do that today with the BENQ Z-series version 2 monitor that just arrived (XL2420Z V2, XL2720Z V2), so theoretically this could occur in the Oculus DK3 or release kit.

TL;DR: Giving a wide choice of low persistence refresh rates is important
-- like a multisync CRT going from 50Hz all the way through 125Hz

Edited by mdrejhon - 3/24/14 at 7:52am
post #139 of 248
Is there anything preventing a future OLED Oculus from running at 120hz or 144hz but with the option of limiting the source content to 60fps and/or 72fps and then just frame-doubling? I mean, I do this all the time with 640x480 sprite-based 2D games that run at a constant 60fps but my Trinitron CRT displays 640x480 at 120hz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfinion View Post

Additionally, since it is only 75Hz, will there most likely be visible flicker issues?
On my Trinitron CRT I find that 75hz doesn't have visible flickering if you're staring right at the screen, but something like 90hz will still seem to be more visibly "stable" and comfortable to the eyes. That's not to say 75hz is uncomfortable, it's certainly not (I used 75hz for years), it's just not the almost relaxing feeling that 90hz and 120hz are by comparison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by routek View Post

I've been horrified by LCDs these past ten years
Tell me about it, I would love to be able to upgrade from my Trinitron CRT to at least a 75hz (90hz or even 120hz would be even better) OLED monitor with black-frame-insertion like the Oculus, which is the entire reason I asked earlier in this thread if using the DK2 for normal 2D desktop use would be possible. This is also why a few months ago I was asking so many questions in the thread for the EIZO Foris FG2421 about its internal upscaler, since that monitor it seems to be the next best thing to an OLED.

(I was asking about the upscaler because I don't want those above-mentioned 640x480 games to look like a blurry mess like they do with "Nvidia scaling", no idea about AMD's scaling)
Edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 - 3/23/14 at 7:54pm
 
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post #140 of 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by iARDAs View Post

I remember them saying somewhere that they would not release a 1080p version of the development kit as for developing games 720p was more than enough. I wonder why they changed their policy.

Some of the parts going into the first devkit went out of production so their stock of first devkit ran out. I would guess that as they had to kinda redo the devkit anyway bcos of having to use different parts in some places they just took the option to redo the entire thing with these additional things in there like latency measuring circuitry. Getting their hands on 1080p oled was probably just icing on the cake or perhaps seen as opportunity to betatest this hardware before putting it into consumer version in larger scale (and higher resolution).
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