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A counter point to AMD not being good for mid-high end - Page 12

post #111 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by damric View Post

Yeah but also many more people own a Honda Civic. I don't know anyone that owns a 1960s Aston Martin DB4, or even a Lamborghini.

And, I bet your neighbor down the street doesn't know anyone with an i7 Extreme with Titan 4 way-SLI thumb.gif

I do but he is crazy, Shouts at people. However I don't blame him 4 way titan SLi would to take away my hearing for good.
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post #112 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durquavian View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 996gt2 View Post

I think it's rather the opposite. CPU "categories" are based on price, with value for money being a separate entity. Intel and AMD always release different classes of CPUs based on price (e.g. Celeron/Pentium/Core i3/Core i5/Core i7/Core i7 Extreme). Same with AMD.
Those are designations within the company and nowhere do you see Highend Lowend, or mid grade in listings of either, bad for less powerful chip sales. Those type of qualifiers are what we in the industry as consumers attach to said chips to predetermine what level of performance to expect. Price is not always indicative of performance. Case in point, the A10-7850K beating a 3960X/K (cant remember the designation) when HSA is enabled. Huge difference in price. By your definition the low end CPU/APU beat out the High end CPU. Doesn't make much sense when only price is the determination.

When the first Intel Core 2 Duo CPUs came out, even the low-end, ~$2-300 E6300 could embarrass a $1000 AMD FX-55 or Intel P4 Extreme. That doesn't change the fact that the Core 2 Duo E6300 was still a low-end/midrange CPU when it came out, relative to other Core 2 Duos of the time. The Core 2 Duo X6800 was a $1000 part, but that doesn't mean its performance was any better than an E6300 overclocked to the equivalent speed.

Price determines whether a CPU is low end or high end.

Can a cheap, low end CPU be very fast? Yes. Case in point: some of the early Core 2 Duo based Pentiums could be overclocked to perform like much more expensive chips. That doesn't change the fact that the Pentium was still a low end chip.

Can a high end, expensive CPU be a performance dud? Yes. Case in point: Intel P4 Extreme Edition.
Edited by 996gt2 - 3/23/14 at 7:49pm
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post #113 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by 996gt2 View Post

When the first Intel Core 2 Duo CPUs came out, even the low-end, ~$2-300 E6300 could embarrass a $1000 AMD FX-55 or Intel P4 Extreme. That doesn't change the fact that the Core 2 Duo E6300 was still a low-end CPU when it came out, relative to other Core 2 Duos of the time. The Core 2 Duo X6800 was a $1000 part, but that doesn't mean its performance was any better than an E6300 overclocked to the equivalent speed.

Price determines whether a CPU is low end or high end.

Can a cheap, low end CPU be very fast? Yes
Can a high end, expensive CPU be a performance dud? Yes.

So if my Athlon was $1000 but still performed the same, you would call it high end?
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post #114 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by damric View Post

Yeah but also many more people own a Honda Civic. I don't know anyone that owns a 1960s Aston Martin DB4, or even a Lamborghini.

And, I bet your neighbor down the street doesn't know anyone with an i7 Extreme with Titan 4 way-SLI :thumb:They are really few and far between.

That's not a valid argument though. Just because you don't know, or don't have neighbors that have high end, or in the case of the car, low end, doesn't make the argument invalid. To me, what he said makes perfect sense.

Yeah, you can't really go back into history to compare. BUT....if realistically, you have a shelf life that exceeds the present, that's a different story to me.

In example, we're comparing a 99 Civic with a new alternator and clutch and upgraded intake and injectors to a 2014 Civic and 2014 Maxima. The maxima is faster, it's got a bigger engine, hands down (this is Intel in case you're not following here) and the Civic is more affordable. Which do you choose? Well, that comes to budget, gas mileage, (TDP), whether you need a faster car at all, if you want to pay for luxury, etc.

In the same regard, you have AMD and Intel. Both will reliably do what you need them to do, and both have their place, even in this Intel dominating time period, which in my belief will pass....But to compare high and low ends, you need to compare current offerings, I'll agree there.

However, here's the kicker....just because Maxima has a better engine doesn't mean I need to give up my 99 Civic. And that's really what matters, because that's where the dollar vote is at. Until my 99 Civic is obsolete and won't pass emission tests....I don't need an upgrade. Some will get a new car, some won't. Some want the fastest, some want the reasonable. It's just differences in what we all want. Why get mad lol this is what competition is all about, different strokes for different folks!
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post #115 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by damric View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 996gt2 View Post

When the first Intel Core 2 Duo CPUs came out, even the low-end, ~$2-300 E6300 could embarrass a $1000 AMD FX-55 or Intel P4 Extreme. That doesn't change the fact that the Core 2 Duo E6300 was still a low-end CPU when it came out, relative to other Core 2 Duos of the time. The Core 2 Duo X6800 was a $1000 part, but that doesn't mean its performance was any better than an E6300 overclocked to the equivalent speed.

Price determines whether a CPU is low end or high end.

Can a cheap, low end CPU be very fast? Yes
Can a high end, expensive CPU be a performance dud? Yes.

So if my Athlon was $1000 but still performed the same, you would call it high end?

Yes. The $1000 Intel P4 Extreme Edition was an expensive high-end chip that didn't perform any better than some of AMD's midrange CPUs back in the day. A $1000 Athlon with the same performance would be no different.

Again, price is what determines low-end/midrange/high-end. If Ferrari released a new car tomorrow with a Honda Civic engine and priced it at $200,000, it would still be a high-end car. A bad one, but a high-end one nonetheless.
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post #116 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by 996gt2 View Post

Yes. The $1000 Intel P4 Extreme Edition was an expensive high-end chip that didn't perform any better than some of AMD's midrange CPUs back in the day. A $1000 Athlon with the same performance would be no different.

Well someone call newegg and tell them they really need to change their business model applaud.gif
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post #117 of 355
To use price as your only measurement of High End vs Low End is silly....

Price is based on supply/demand and the price the market is willing to pay. Period.

Price may increase incrementally with performance, because if I am buying a new chip today, why would I pay more for less? Of course the higher price chip from the same company is better. Otherwise, why buy that one? (This is, of course, not always reality, especially with overclocking and I don't really understand that lol but that's neither here nor there)

Price is a result of performance, not a measurement of it. You're getting it backwards. They develop a better performing product and price it accordingly.




Also, if we are to compare Low/Mid/High end, let's just agree that we have to use CURRENT offerings, not compare them to the middle ages.
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post #118 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by LtStinger View Post

To use price as your only measurement of High End vs Low End is silly....

Price is based on supply/demand and the price the market is willing to pay. Period.

Price may increase incrementally with performance, because if I am buying a new chip today, why would I pay more for less? Of course the higher price chip from the same company is better. Otherwise, why buy that one? (This is, of course, not always reality, especially with overclocking and I don't really understand that lol but that's neither here nor there)

Price is a result of performance, not a measurement of it.. You're getting it backwards. They develop a better performing product and price it accordingly.

Also, if we are to compare Low/Mid/High end, let's just agree that we have to use CURRENT offerings, not compare them to the middle ages.

I never said price was a measurement of performance. I said price is how low-end/midrange/high-end are determined. That doesn't mean that a "high end" CPU necessarily has to be faster performance-wise than a midrange one.

Example: Intel's P4 EE wasn't any faster than a $300 Athlon, but it was still priced at $1000.

AMD has done the same thing at times. The Phenom I 8300 cost $283 at launch, despite being slower than the cheaper Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600.

I do agree with part of your point, however. Companies price products according to what they believe people will pay, at least most of the time.

This is why AMD has no consumer CPUs priced over $400. They simply do not have the performance to justify the price. AMD is in business to make a profit. If they had a CPU that could compete with Intel's best (Ivy Bridge-E) performance-wise, they would price it accordingly.
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post #119 of 355
If you are going to consider gaming then I don't think it's a wise decision to spend +$166 just for 4-5fps that too just to make 50-60fps into a 55-65 fps, it's only going to increase in numbers, first in your expense and then in your fps measurements..does someone here really think that if you already have 50-60 fps you really need more fps?? Are your eyes sensitive enough to perceive even a couple of milliseconds of activity?? Absolutely not. You have 50-60 fps then you don't need more. And to get that figure you can equally spend on either Intel (4670k) or AMD (FX-83x0)

Yeah definitely a 3960X/4960X may give more than 10-15 fps of difference in some popular games but then will you spend +$800 for just 10-15 fps..that's awfully bad business..it makes sense if you have 4k monitors in eye-infity and need 3x/4x R9 290/290X or Titan's or 780 Ti's in CFX/SLI but otherwise you're just sinking your hard earned money into something only good in numbers not for real.
    
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post #120 of 355
I think people's perception of low/mid/high-end is exactly just that, their own perception relative to their budget and needs. A guy with a 5Ghz i7 and SLI will consider his rig high end while a graphic designer with 2 huge Xeons, 4 top end firepros 4 SSD's and 10 HDD's will look at that i7 rig like a child's play thing. Most folks that can crank the graphics to ultra and bang out 60 FPS in any game of their choosing, regardless of brand of CPU will look at their rig as high end when compared to something less. It's all perspective.

I also feel a systems high/low end ranking depends entirely on the category in which it competes. Take for instance a high end HTPC might have dual core, a mediocre GPU, a couple TB of storage and a nice sound card, where as a mid range gaming system will have double the specs of that HTPC but maybe less storage. Last but not least a low end professional productivity machine will probably have double the specs of that mid range gaming rig. See my point ?
Edited by CMI86 - 3/23/14 at 9:32pm
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Athlon II X2 250 asrock n68 vs3 fx Gigabyte 8400 GS Passive 4GB Generic Microcenter RAM 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
250 Cuda 3.5 Pioneer BD/DVD/RW XBMCUbuntu 12.04 55" LED T.V. 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
MS Wireless Athena Power 400w Some HTPC case I cant find the name of  MS Wireless 
Audio
Integrated 
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Reply
Night Train
(11 items)
 
   
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Athlon II X2 250 asrock n68 vs3 fx Gigabyte 8400 GS Passive 4GB Generic Microcenter RAM 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
250 Cuda 3.5 Pioneer BD/DVD/RW XBMCUbuntu 12.04 55" LED T.V. 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
MS Wireless Athena Power 400w Some HTPC case I cant find the name of  MS Wireless 
Audio
Integrated 
  hide details  
Reply
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