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A counter point to AMD not being good for mid-high end - Page 19

post #181 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by damric View Post

I'll tell you that my Z is high end because most people drive Corrollas. Your Ferrari is just freakish smile.gif
OK LOVE the analogy and it gives me an idea and what the root of the problem for the discussion at hand is. Oh and this is gonna be one long post.

Using the aforementioned cars: The Ferrari , the Z, and a corolla. The Ferrari is definitely what we all agree would be considered top end/high end. Of course the cost for this product matches with a lofty price tag. The corolla is definitely in the low end, I am sure we all agree here as well. But the Z is an enigma here. Why? Because based on the above prices we could argue reasonably that it is mid end. But the performance level is far closer to the Ferrari than the corolla. The Z could reasonably be argued to be within 80-90% of the performance of the Ferrari in relation to the corolla. That says it all about the topic at hand.

I am going to quote my posts from the original thread this thread spawned from:
Quote:
Ok lets be REAL. Fact as has been noted by so many over so many of these threads is that everyday gaming and usage it is nearly impossible to tell the difference. You bench mostly and yes there is a difference there, in results mostly, seeing how there is no productivity involved.

I always keep it real and honest so let me show you guys how. Seeing most use a single monitor @1080p then any, yes ANY current CPU will suffice. The bigger issue, especially for gamers is the GPU. And stay honest, 60hz is the refresh rate of most of these monitors. A 43xx AMD or i3 can give a great experience in gaming with these qualifiers. And these apply to most, the lions share, of gamers.

Now lets speak to the extreme gamers and the like. Yes then it becomes a bit smaller as far as options. These guys run multi-monitors with multiple GPUs to run them and generally multiple programs while playing. At this point only the top AMD offerings of 8350/20/9590 will do and even then they have their limits. Intel has the better options but the 4770/3770 and the other 20 that sit in that range for Intel are in the same boat as the aforementioned AMDs, leaving just the 6cores from Intel as the only options (could be more, my knowledge of all Intel offerings are limited).

For business Intel becomes the only option, but it isn't their arch so much that makes it so but the software ie:ICC. And the power usage does become a factor here and obviously Intel is a no brainer for that as well.

THIS IS THE REAL AND HONEST ANSWER.

A bit general in parts but the topic and message are clear enough. This next was an attempt to look at it from the other side.
Quote:
First I want to thank you for this. It gave me an idea.

We are attacking this from the wrong angle. So I am going to ask some questions and I warn you, they are loaded.

1. Since you have concluded AMD is not viable, then is it correct to assume you mean they are low end and barely making medium?

2. Being that they are low end, does that mean that they can only run on low to medium setting in games?

3. All those guys running CF up to Quad fire, and what the hay, SLI and Tri-SLI on FX 8350s wasted their money and time with subpar CPUs?

Now with more ME questions.

Using, for those on phones and cant see my Rig:

FX 8350 @4.84Ghz 220 FSB with 22 Multi C&Q enabled No turbo
16Gb Ram @1466 7-8-8-22-30 1T 2420 CPU-NB
XFX 7770 x2 1150 core 1450 Memory voltage locked 2860 HT link
1Tb HDD no SSD
Acer S231HL 23" 1080p 60Hz

4. So with Skyrim and full 2K textures 80+ mods run with 4eq SSAA High FXAA and SMAA Capped to 75FPS ( weird glitch with Vsync only running with 120FPS fixed with last driver but not rerun Skyrim) and I get high quality Gameplay with fine textures and run at average of 73 FPS for a 3hour session ( load screens are 30 FPS so depending on how many fast travels you do your FPS will be impacted slightly). So am I cheating or am skewing the results to my favor?

5. I browse the internet, mostly this site, and it moves flawlessly and smooth with no hitches. Is it a fluke and not what I should expect as an 8350 user?


Truth be told, some here work harder than necessary to make the situation look worse than it actually is. I have yet to see the ones sticking around to make the argument on the AMD side ever once say AMD was the top performer and bash Intel in any way. rather as they and I have done is make a much better case for Viable=yes than any naysayer.

Next is a point I think says more than anything: Do you have the part you are claiming to know so much about? Gotta love the naysayers that never even touched the part and the extent of their knowledge is some review or poster with obvious disdain for the product.
Quote:
Agreed, hence my first 3 questions ( the ones you dodged). Your using only benches to make an assessment of something that you apparently have little to no experience with is appalling. I don't give my assessment of Intel CPUs simply put because I don't own one. That is when I must defer to owners like you to give your experience for what one can ACTUALLY expect. Benches don't do that well at all. I have seen you on more than one occasion gripe about the clocks used on Nvidia GPUs for a particular bench. So I think it is safe that for the most part you have to agree benches are poor indicators for actual real life every day use experience.

This is why I say if one is interested in a FX 8350 and wishes to know if it is viable for a mid - high end computer then the answer is yes. Is it the best you can get, NO. Is it worth it at $____, yes. Then there are the particular tasks and then it becomes yes and no depending on the task. For Gaming yes.

Now I do have issue with the price debate because simply the 8 core FXs are limited by the coolers chosen and tend to require higher coolers and boards to ensure that High-end performance.
Quote:
Honestly Price will come in to price comparisons. Fact is the Intel likely is fine with the stock cooler where the 8350 will not be ( the 9370/9590 come with better coolers I believe but not sure for OC). But then that brings about the point of the thread, IS AMD VIABLE FOR MID-HIGH END? I already ascertained it is but this was not on a price comparison. Once you add that in then you are also gonna have to add: Delidding and other such anomilies. When you are making the argument for Viable and Mid-High end then you are already throwing out the price argument and going for end result.

END RESULT. That is what the question is asking. Not at what price but can it do it. The fact is yes. Seriously if you decide to go for high end then price is in the back of the bus and its stop is dead last. Usually first is getting the wife to let you do it. biggrin.gif So the end result is AMD is viable. Is it gonna be cheap: no.

And an attempt to remind others of the topic:
Quote:
This is the point where you need to realize the topic: Is AMD viable for Mid-High end. It isn't: Is AMD better than Intel for mid-high end. Nor is it about : Which would be cheaper for Mid-High end.

I made the point that it is. If you wish to say it isn't then one thing to help is prove how its not is to show where it would be limited like a LIMIT in math, a point it cant reach. Intel has absolutely nothing to do with it other than where the bar gets placed. What you can do with a 4770K says absolutely nothing about what you can do with a FX 8350.

That is a great deal of the points I made there. At no point do I belittle any other for their choice nor do I flame the other side. Seems to me to make the case, as stated above, Intels only mention should be where the bar gets set. Then every post after should be to determine if AMD can reach it for that level.
post #182 of 355
Quote:
the problem with your analogy is that the limit of the brain's perception is around 60fps. Anyone who gets more frames on their display is doing so needlessly. And it isn't the case that you might not be able to tell but I might be able to tell. The brain is set up this way for every human being on earth, and nobody can tell 60 FPS from 120 FPS. So your analogy talks about 15-20 FPS being good for some and not good for others, and while that may be the case, no person alive can possibly see more than 60 FPS.

You need to educate yourself in this area~

Not only can we see the direct effects in the form of increased smoothness, there is a large list of indirect effects such as perceived motion blur correlating to FPS

Also since frametimes are not static like a video with one frame every 16.67ms - when you're playing an actual game they vary a lot by nature, so you can need higher FPS, say 70, 80, to stop seeing easily perceivable improvements on a 60hz screen. That goes out of the window with 144hz and 120hz strobed though.

Quote:
the problem with your analogy is that the limit of the brain's perception is around 60fps.

If this was anything but ludicrous, you might have some kind of a point
Edited by Cyro999 - 3/24/14 at 4:07pm
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post #183 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisjames61 View Post

How would you compare the performance of your highly overclocked 6300 with your A10-6800k which is basically a 760K with the IGPU correct?

Module for module and clock for clock they are more similar than different in compute-only (instruction/FPU) workloads. When the iGPU is leveraged on the A10, compute performance suffers as the contention for system memory access begins to act as a bit of a bottleneck. If I could do it over again I wouldn't have bothered with the iGPU. The 760K + HD7770 would have been worth the extra few bucks.

A 760k @ 5ghz should perform almost exactly the same as an i5-2400 or E3-1220 in most games or trade blows with an i3-4330 depending on how parallel the workload is. By most standards that is a pretty acceptable performance level to play nearly any game out there with just about any value conscious GPU solution (<$250). Considering this can be accomplished on a $65 Biostar A88M-6.2 and about $40 worth of CPU cooling, I think the 760K represents one of AMDs sweet spots for value right now. Unless you have access to a Microcenter, in which case, the FX-6300+UD3P is about the same price.

The FX-6300 @ 5ghz trades blows with an i5-4440 or E3-1220V3 in gaming. Again, not a bad place to be performance wise for gaming on value conscious GPU solutions. For the right price, the FX chip offers an interesting alternative for folks who find value in the novelty of tinkering and performance tuning.
Edited by mdocod - 3/24/14 at 7:09pm
     
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post #184 of 355
Those 2 threads are priceless.

Only things missing are choosing what's better based on marketing color (blue vs red/green), or based on knowing that 1+1=3.

A 3rd thing missing would be someone using Armageddon as a counter argument. "Rocks fall, everyone dies" and such.
What if a few huge meteors end up destroying the Intel processor manufacturing plants? Intel processor prices would skyrocket and AMD processors would be better choices. Claiming that such a thing would never happen would be an assumption anyway, since there were quite a few meteors that fell on earth in the past! tongue.gif


All in all, a desktop or laptop isn't a huge deal. It is wasted in most daily tasks anyway.

You could easily use your phone, tablet or gaming console to do the same things.
post #185 of 355
The only way for software to determine CPU speed in an overclocked AMD rig that has a modified base clock is by timing the CPU cycles against the system timer. Most software doesn't do this. UEFI/BIOS does not forward the modified BCLK speed as part of the DMI table.



Here's what the OS "sees" on a 250MHZ BCLK, 20X CPU multiplier and "9.33/4.66X" memory multiplier.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Code:
Handle 0x0004, DMI type 4, 42 bytes
Processor Information
        Socket Designation: CPU 1
        Type: Central Processor
        Family: FX
        Manufacturer: AMD              
        ID: 20 0F 60 00 FF FB 8B 17
        Version: AMD FX(tm)-6300 Six-Core Processor             
        Voltage: 1.2 V
        External Clock: 200 MHz
        Max Speed: 4000 MHz
        Current Speed: 4000 MHz
        Status: Populated, Enabled
        Upgrade: Socket AM3
        L1 Cache Handle: 0x0005
        L2 Cache Handle: 0x0006
        L3 Cache Handle: 0x0007
        Serial Number: To Be Filled By O.E.M.
        Asset Tag: To Be Filled By O.E.M.
        Part Number: To Be Filled By O.E.M.
        Core Count: 6
        Core Enabled: 6
        Thread Count: 6
        Characteristics:
                64-bit capable


Handle 0x0034, DMI type 17, 34 bytes
Memory Device
        Array Handle: 0x002C
        Error Information Handle: Not Provided
        Total Width: 64 bits
        Data Width: 64 bits
        Size: 4096 MB
        Form Factor: DIMM
        Set: None
        Locator: Node0_Dimm3
        Bank Locator: Node0_Bank0
        Type: DDR3
        Type Detail: Synchronous Unbuffered (Unregistered)
        Speed: 800 MHz
        Manufacturer: Undefined         
        Serial Number: A014446F    
        Asset Tag: Dimm3_AssetTag
        Part Number: BLS4G3D1609DS
        Rank: 2
        Configured Clock Speed: 933 MHz

Actual speeds, are of course, 5GHZ and 2.33GT/s.


Using LM-Bench to calculate actual CPU speeds:
Code:
Calculating mhz, please wait for a moment...
I think your CPU mhz is 

        5000 MHz, 0.2000 nanosec clock

Edited by mdocod - 3/24/14 at 8:31pm
     
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post #186 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thready View Post

the problem with your analogy is that the limit of the brain's perception is around 60fps. Anyone who gets more frames on their display is doing so needlessly. And it isn't the case that you might not be able to tell but I might be able to tell. The brain is set up this way for every human being on earth, and nobody can tell 60 FPS from 120 FPS.

Complete and utter nonsense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durquavian View Post

Now I do have issue with the price debate because simply the 8 core FXs are limited by the coolers chosen and tend to require higher coolers and boards to ensure that High-end performance.

This is something a lot of people overlook, which often leads to either an underestimation of total platform cost for an AM3+ setup, or an overestimation of platform cost for a LGA-1155/1150 setup.
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post #187 of 355
I have an AMD System and am quite satisfied overall with the performance I have gotten out of it over the last 2 years. I have upgraded my GPU a few times from a GTS450 to a GTX560 SE to a HD7950. Its has handled BF:BC2 on the GTS450 at med hi settings with out and issue at about 40FPS. With the GTX560 SE, BF3 was very playable at high settings at about 30fps Med settings at 50fps. Now with the 7950 BF4 is at a steady 60fps with no issue. No lag. But I do get the occasional game crash. Not sure what that is about but I am investigating the problem. I think that with the right setup an AMD system can be a VERY solid system with performance and playability that the buyer is looking for at a price lower than an Intel system. Now I'm not saying that Intel is not better. It is in some cases. But for BUDGET MINDED people, like myself, we want the most that we can get for the money that we have. I don't have $1000 to spend on a new system and chances are that trying to save the money up to do that will only lead to my inevitable spending of my saved money on something that has to be fixed first. Like my car. I live paycheck to paycheck so saving for an Intel system just is not in my future. In steps AMD with their lower prices and, for me, more than adequate performance.

For instance. Say I want to replace my 6 core processor with another 6 core processor. I am dead set on not going down to 2 or 4 cores. I want 6. Now With AMD I have 4 choices UNDER $150. With Intel the first 6 core processor is $400!!! And its a Xeon(server?) processor. And thats just the processor. Yes I am sure that the Intel 4 core or 2 core processors may be "better optimized". But like I said. Say I am dead set on the 6. Why would I pay 3x more for just the processor? Now lets take it up to 8 cores. The most expensive AMD 8 core processor is $315 (9590). That's still $85 less expensive than the cheapest 6 core Intel(Xeon E5-2620 V2). So again, why would I spend the extra if I am on a strict budget?
I'm not saying that AMD is better than Intel or vice versa. But to say that AMD is not a viable gaming option is close minded and just dumb. Yes the performance may not be comparable to Intel in some cases. But it is still sufficient enough and then some with the right supporting hardware to be more than viable. Also remember its not always about just performance. Price also plays a HUGE part in what the PC Gamer gets. Something I think we all forget about sometimes.
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post #188 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyM4n View Post

Ahhhh, so AMD made Mantle just for laughs. Now I see! Probably wanted to use it as a cape to play superhero or something.

Apparently since the FPU isn't used for gaming, you don't need a GPU either. Just a video card to output the graphics, while the CPU does rendering... on its integer units. tongue.gif

It all makes sense now. biggrin.gif

like having a drag race and taking out the 1000hp truck and replacing it with same truck without a engine and the driver has to push it to the finish line.
Quote:
the problem with your analogy is that the limit of the brain's perception is around 60fps. Anyone who gets more frames on their display is doing so needlessly. And it isn't the case that you might not be able to tell but I might be able to tell. The brain is set up this way for every human being on earth, and nobody can tell 60 FPS from 120 FPS. So your analogy talks about 15-20 FPS being good for some and not good for others, and while that may be the case, no person alive can possibly see more than 60 FPS.

limit of the brain perception is not to compared to frames pre second. One could say the brain perception of 60 fps is by how much light/information the brain can process. Your 60fps could be someone elses 40, or 120. My friend can't tell PAL to NTSC (50/60fps) while myself can clearly notice the difference, it comes down to feeling the flow of frames, if you played 30fps to 40fps I wouldn't know that 10fps difference but I can feel something has changed in the flow.

http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm
Edited by Unknownm - 3/25/14 at 12:52am
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post #189 of 355
Quote:
For instance. Say I want to replace my 6 core processor with another 6 core processor. I am dead set on not going down to 2 or 4 cores. I want 6. Now With AMD I have 4 choices UNDER $150.
Quote:
But like I said. Say I am dead set on the 6.

That's called a PEBKAC issue

It wouldn't make any sense to get a 6-threaded CPU over a 4-threaded one if the 4-threaded one was faster in every way, singlethreaded, multithreaded etc across a wide range of benches
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post #190 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post


That's called a PEBKAC issue

It wouldn't make any sense to get a 6-threaded CPU over a 4-threaded one if the 4-threaded one was faster in every way, singlethreaded, multithreaded etc across a wide range of benches

Ok lets look at that point. I'm not trying to make a Performance Point. I am trying to make a Affordability Point. Yes the Intel is going to be better. But better don't mean squat if you can't afford it.

The most expensive 6 core AMD Processor on PCPartPicker is still $120(AMD FX-6350) while the Lowest priced Intel 4 core chip is $175(Intel Core i5-4440). And thats not even one of the most popular Intel or AMD chips that I have seen used. If you go with some of the most common chips used than the difference is even bigger.

Lets say we go AMD FX-6300. Thats a pretty commonly used AMD representation.
And for intel lets do Intel Core i5-4670K. Another commonly used processor.

The AMD is $110
The Intel is $235

LINK

Now, yes I am sure that the Intel will be a better choice. But I don't have $235 to spend on just the processor. And if I go with the AMD selection I can get the motherboard included for the same price as just the Intel Processor. (Asus M5A99FX PRO R2.0 - $125 at Newegg) So what do you think the Budget minded gamer is going to select for the best performance he can afford. Just because the Intel is better performance wise does not mean that its better affordability wise. And that AMD processor and Motherboard will work just fine for any gaming that the gamer will do providing he has the right supporting hardware.

Like I said. Its not always about JUST performance. Price plays a huge part. Something that keeps getting overlooked.
Edited by Erick Silver - 3/25/14 at 12:58am
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