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A counter point to AMD not being good for mid-high end - Page 20

post #191 of 355
this is why I say if one is interested in a FX 8350 and wishes to know if it is viable for a mid - high end computer then the answer is yes. Is it the best you can get, NO. Is it worth it at $____, yes. Then there are the particular tasks and then it becomes yes and no depending on the task. For Gaming yes.


Perfect answer!


I LOVE my AMD Rigs! The old 1100T still rocks and my 8320 with a mild OC is just fine with a 7950 and 8 gigs of ram....This is enough for ME! I personally would never cough up $2500 to build an 8 core intel/Titan rig to play a $50 game at 120 mhz...but, that's me. I play games on a 60 inch Sony at 60hz and they look great to me!
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post #192 of 355
I still rock my 1090T @3.8Ghz with a HD7950 and 16GB of RAM. It runs everything I need it to. Great for gaming!
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post #193 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erick Silver View Post

Ok lets look at that point. I'm not trying to make a Performance Point. I am trying to make a Affordability Point. Yes the Intel is going to be better. But better don't mean squat if you can't afford it.

The most expensive 6 core AMD Processor on PCPartPicker is still $120(AMD FX-6350) while the Lowest priced Intel 4 core chip is $175(Intel Core i5-4440). And thats not even one of the most popular Intel or AMD chips that I have seen used. If you go with some of the most common chips used than the difference is even bigger.

Lets say we go AMD FX-6300. Thats a pretty commonly used AMD representation.
And for intel lets do Intel Core i5-4670K. Another commonly used processor.

The AMD is $110
The Intel is $235

LINK

Now, yes I am sure that the Intel will be a better choice. But I don't have $235 to spend on just the processor. And if I go with the AMD selection I can get the motherboard included for the same price as just the Intel Processor. (Asus M5A99FX PRO R2.0 - $125 at Newegg) So what do you think the Budget minded gamer is going to select for the best performance he can afford. Just because the Intel is better performance wise does not mean that its better affordability wise. And that AMD processor and Motherboard will work just fine for any gaming that the gamer will do providing he has the right supporting hardware.

Like I said. Its not always about JUST performance. Price plays a huge part. Something that keeps getting overlooked.

Ya, 6300 is good value - that just doesn't make it appropriate to rival a mid (~4670k) to high end (~4930k) system
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post #194 of 355
Quote:
Ya, 6300 is good value - that just doesn't make it appropriate to rival a mid (~4670k) to high end (~4930k) system

Thats true if the cpu is the bottleneck (which in most cases for most uses for a typical user it isnt) but if it isnt youre just wasting money that could be used on the real system bottleneck.
    
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post #195 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Ya, 6300 is good value - that just doesn't make it appropriate to rival a mid (~4670k) to high end (~4930k) system

Depends for what.

Say, if you want to do a 1000$ gaming PC then AMD can be sensible choice depending on what you are after. I mean CPU's do not exist in vacuum - it's the whole package that important. At given budget - other than very few select people who do not need to look at price-tag - it's usually about right compromises. If the decision would be, for example, between getting and Intel system with HDD and AMD system with SSD + HDD it is entirely possible that AMD system would make more sense. Or AMD with dual GFX cards and Intel with only one GFX, etc. At the end of the day budget does come into play and also what is available at what price. The blanket statements in the lines of "Intel is better" or "AMD is better" are just being a fanboy - because it depends. A normal user, I would like to believe, just goes for the best bang for his buck and the "best bang" is dependent on what he is intending to do with the machine.

In my opinion going for Intel CPU starts to make sense at approx 700$ mark for just the box. At ~1500$ or above Intel would probably start to make sense most of the time, I would say (just for the box without mouse/KB/display). But if a person want to build a ~500$ "Steambox" then AMD would be quite strong competitor in there, especially if user is willing to OC a bit.
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post #196 of 355
760K(~$90) + A85/88 w/heatunk VRMs (~$70-100) + ~150W+ capable HSF (~$30-45) competes with the i3-4130/4330 (~$120-135) + nice B85 boards (~$70-100) + OEM HSF

Cost to implement is almost exactly the same. The i3 performs better out of the box in traditional desktop applications and games. The Athlon clocked to ~4.7-5ghz will trade blows depending on workload, and offer an interesting alternative at this price point for those who find value in tinkering and performance tuning. As it would turn out, the type of user who finds value in the ability to performance tune, is also likely to have more workloads that favor the scenarios that the AMD solution would be beneficial.

Is this high end? or low end? Well. The performance and capabilities of the 760K@5ghz almost directly matches the Sandy Bridge XEON E3-1220 / CORE i5-2400 in all sorts of real world workloads. I would argue that this is "middle" ground performance. Your perspective may vary:

The 760K@4.7-5ghz/E3-1220 is going to be ~1.5-3X faster in most real world workloads than a "low end" locked Athlon X2 (340) (~3.4ghz) or Intel Haswell Celeron (G1820) class chip in the ~$50 range. THOSE chips, are currently-shipping late-generation desktop parts. THOSE represent the current production low-end of the mainstream desktop world from my perspective at this time.

The 760K@4.7-5ghz/E3-1220 is going to be ~1.5-3.5X slower in most real world workloads than a "high end" i7-4930K@4.7-5GHZ. The i7-4930K OCed to ~4.7-5ghz represents the current "high end" from my perspective at this time.

Even If we include the "unusual" extremes, like ~10W desktop parts from intel, and a dual socket server system implemented as a desktop workstation, the 760K@5ghz/E3-1220 will still wind up in the "middle" of those 2 extremes. As such, I would consider this "middle-tier" performance.

The 760K@4.7-5ghz requires about 3X as much power to run at this performance tuned setting under full load than the competing i3 haswell products. In terms of compute efficiency, this is a low-end result from my perspective.


FX-6300 (~$110-120) + 970 w/6+ phase heatunk VRMs ($90-120) + ~220W+ capable HSF ($40-75) competes with the i5-4440/4570/E3-1220V3 (~$180-205) + nice B85 boards ($70-100) + OEM HSF

Again, cost to implement is almost exactly the same. The i5/E3 perform better out of the box in traditional desktop applications and games. The FX chip clocked to ~4.7-5ghz will trade blows depending on workload, and offers and interesting alternative at this price point for those who find value in tinkering and performance tuning. As it would turn out, the type of user who finds value in the ability to performance tune, is also likely to have more workloads that favor the scenarios that the AMD solution would be beneficial.

The FX-6300@5GHZ is ~1.5-4.5X as fast as the low end that I defined above, and ~1.5-2.3X slower than the high end defined above, depending on workload.

Is this high end? or low end? I'd still call this middle-tier performance as it still falls behind the "half way" mark to the top of the performance ladder under parallel workloads. Your perspective may vary.

The FX-6300@4.7-5ghz requires about 3X as much power to run at this performance tuned setting under full load than the competing i5/E3 haswell products. In terms of compute efficiency, this is a low-end result from my perspective.


FX-8320 (~$140-160) + 990FX w/8+ phase heatunk VRMs ($125-225) +~300W HSF ($75-120) competes with the i5-4670K (+150W+ HSF) / E3-1230V3/E3-1240V3 (+OEM HSF) ($240-280) + SLI capable Z87 boards ($110-220+)

Again, cost to implement is almost exactly the same. The i5/E3 perform better out of the box in many traditional desktop applications and games. The i5 can be overclocked, the E3 in this example has hyper-threading, the E3 vs i5 will trade blows depending on workload and depending on how high the i5 will clock, The FX chip clocked to ~4.7+ghz will trade blows with the overclocked i5 and non-overclock-able E3 w/hyper-threading. A careful examination of anticipated workloads becomes a major point of consideration within this class, as each option has the potential to be considerably faster under specific conditions.

The FX-8320@4.7GHZ is ~1.4-5.6X as fast as the low end that I defined above, and ~1.7X slower than the high end defined above, depending on workload.

I consider the OCed i5 haswell, Oced FX-8320, and E3-1230V3 to be high end as they draw within the margin of "over half way" to the "high end" of desktop performance that I have defined previously. However, how "high end" the FX-8320 is for a particular user, would depend heavily on workload parallelism and the importance that they place on compute efficiency. Perspective and conditions are free to vary.


The FX-8350/9370/9590s are AMD enthusiast novelties IMO. They offer an improved chance at that "illusive" 5+ghz class overclock. If you're lucky enough to have one of those "awesome" clocking 8-core chips that will hit ~5.5ghz on a "practical" (non-condensing/sub-ambient) cooling solution under $300, then you're within ~10% of the performance of an E5-1650V2 at similar implementation cost. Congratulations. I consider an E5-1650V2 and anything that performs approximately like it to be "high end." Unfortunately, there isn't ANY guarantee of this sort of overclock so I would not say that AMD is competing with intel in this class, rather, performance tuners and enthusiasts are competing in this class. This is comparable to performance tuning on the X58 platform for novelties sake. The resulting performance can nip at X79 well enough to still be viable as a high end gaming or workstation rig.
     
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post #197 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdocod View Post

very well written breakdown. Thanks mdocod

I agree completely. Although you classifing 4670k and 8320 at the bottom of top end is the same as top of midrange. Perspective can be hell on perception I guess. I own a 4670k and I look at intell i7 as high end. Someone with a fx4300 might look at 4670k as high end I guess.

Nice job on the write up. Have a +rep.
Edited by Wirerat - 3/25/14 at 3:56am
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post #198 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Ya, 6300 is good value - that just doesn't make it appropriate to rival a mid (~4670k) to high end (~4930k) system
Not that you are wrong, but this is the point I made earlier. Intels only point in this thread is to set the bar for the viable discussion.

You see when someone says they are getting the performance they need from their AMD purchase, then obviously it is viable. And for the most part not one has said it was better than an Intel alternative, that point is only adversely made by the Intel posters.

Did you not see my car analogy?
Quote:
Using the aforementioned cars: The Ferrari , the Z, and a corolla. The Ferrari is definitely what we all agree would be considered top end/high end. Of course the cost for this product matches with a lofty price tag. The corolla is definitely in the low end, I am sure we all agree here as well. But the Z is an enigma here. Why? Because based on the above prices we could argue reasonably that it is mid end. But the performance level is far closer to the Ferrari than the corolla. The Z could reasonably be argued to be within 80-90% of the performance of the Ferrari in relation to the corolla. That says it all about the topic at hand.

I thought later maybe I should have explained the parallel but wanted to see how some responded, and as usual no response. Getting hard to have rational debates, most see what they want to see. Any way the above analogy was perfect for this debate. Say we use the 4930K , the 8350 and the A10-7850K (using its iGPU and no HSA for this argument). The 4930K has a performance level in gaming at some high point with the 7850K being far behind. According to the standards albeit quite vague and quite ignorant associated with just price the 8350 would then be associated with the 7850K or just above. It would look like this:

4930K- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -8350- -7850K

But in fact according to the performance one gets or can get it would be more like this:

4930K- - - - - - 8350- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 7850K

Of course this is just for gaming and the limit being more the GPUs used but you can see that the connotation of words makes a huge difference in what is actually perceived.
post #199 of 355
You're forgetting another valid point...My low-end 8320 lightly Oc'd on air doubles as a space heater to keep my feet warm under the desk! Try that with an uber efficient, water cooled Haswell!


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post #200 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdocod View Post

The resulting performance can nip at X79 well enough to still be viable as a high end gaming or workstation rig.

The post pretty much describes the situation, but this particular part is somewhat too general.

Workstation rigs and gaming rigs are not all that similar, and while your remarks on the gaming aspect are fine, a workstation rig is a completely different matter.

The needs on situational performance make the cost on workstation builds a secondary matter.


Both Intel and AMD have 2 sockets for their workstation targeted processors. One for low-to-mid end, and one for mid-to-high end.

Now you could get an i7 or FX instead of xeon/opteron, you could even use the extra feature of using an unlocked processor to increase relative performance, but even like that, even when using a hexa-core overclocked 4930k, you'll still be way behind a twelve-core xeon. So essentially you'd relate more to the mid-end position than the high-end when it comes to single socket workstation.

Workstation needs are very different than gaming and office needs. Workstation oriented processors are mostly useless for things like gaming by design. It's a whole different situation.

The 3930k I use here is bundled with a mere Radeon 5850 cause the system here is designed to perform adequately very specific kinds of tasks. It might be considered a high-end desktop part, but for workstation oriented tasks like the ones here, it's merely mid-end. If I had the means to balance the purchase of a 7000$ fifteen-core xeon, I'd even get that.
Also note that even if the cpu here was a 4930k, it's not the best performing processor out there for gaming (the 4770k performs better on most games, even the 4670k usually does) and it's not the best for workstation loads either (those over-priced fifteen-core xeons are).

The mention on purchasing a 7000$ is not a joke by the way. On workstation builds the initial cost is a trivial matter. What counts is how well the processor is going to balance its initial and running costs.
Edited by PsyM4n - 3/25/14 at 4:24am
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