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A counter point to AMD not being good for mid-high end - Page 21

post #201 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyM4n View Post

The post pretty much describes the situation, but this particular part is somewhat too general.

Workstation rigs and gaming rigs are not all that similar, and while your remarks on the gaming aspect are fine, a workstation rig is a completely different matter.

The needs on situational performance make the cost on workstation builds a secondary matter.


Both Intel and AMD have 2 sockets for their workstation targeted processors. One for low-to-mid end, and one for mid-to-high end.

Now you could get an i7 or FX instead of xeon/opteron, you could even use the extra feature of using an unlocked processor to increase relative performance, but even like that, even when using a hexa-core overclocked 4930k, you'll still be way behind a twelve-core xeon. So essentially you'd relate more to the mid-end position than the high-end when it comes to single socket workstation.

Workstation needs are very different than gaming and office needs. Workstation oriented processors are mostly useless for things like gaming by design. It's a whole different situation.

The 3930k I use here is bundled with a mere Radeon 5850 cause the system here is designed to perform adequately very specific kinds of tasks. It might be considered a high-end desktop part, but for workstation oriented tasks like the ones here, it's merely mid-end. If I had the means to balance the purchase of a 7000$ fifteen-core xeon, I'd even get that.
Also note that even if the cpu here was a 4930k, it's not the best performing processor out there for gaming (the 4770k performs better on most games, even the 4670k usually does) and it's not the best for workstation loads either (those over-priced fifteen-core xeons are).

The mention on purchasing a 7000$ is not a joke by the way. On workstation builds the initial cost is a trivial matter. What counts is how well the processor is going to balance its initial and running costs.
Sorry but who here is talking about workstations as a group, not an individual. You are doing just what I said:
Quote:
You see when someone says they are getting the performance they need from their AMD purchase, then obviously it is viable. And for the most part not one has said it was better than an Intel alternative, that point is only adversely made by the Intel posters.

For most of us here, rigs are used for 2 different things: Gaming and Benching. Not that your point of workstation use is wrong but has little to do with topic at hand. It is a sidestep and slant that serves no purpose to the original argument other than to STEER the discussion away from what is turning out again, as in the other thread, proof positive that AMD is indeed Viable.
post #202 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durquavian View Post

Sorry but who here is talking about workstations as a group, not an individual. You are doing just what I said:
For most of us here, rigs are used for 2 different things: Gaming and Benching. Not that your point of workstation use is wrong but has little to do with topic at hand. It is a sidestep and slant that serves no purpose to the original argument other than to STEER the discussion away from what is turning out again, as in the other thread, proof positive that AMD is indeed Viable.

Feel free not to reply if you don't feel like my posts are fulfilling your needs.

As for the workstation oriented comment, it was a reply to a post mentioning workstations. If the wind blows there, then I can choose to go there (or not tongue.gif).
post #203 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyM4n View Post

The post pretty much describes the situation, but this particular part is somewhat too general.

Workstation rigs and gaming rigs are not all that similar, and while your remarks on the gaming aspect are fine, a workstation rig is a completely different matter.

The needs on situational performance make the cost on workstation builds a secondary matter.

I'm sorry I have to disagree, heavily.

Most workstations and gaming rigs have MORE in common at the CPU level than anywhere else. It's the fringe of productivity applications that leverage multi-socket and workstation class GPUs in cost-no-object builds well enough to bother with. Mainstream workstations for media editing, content creation, 3D animation, CAD, software development etc, more often than not are running CPU hardware that is similar to "gaming" rigs.

The most significant area of separation between a traditional "desktop" personal computer (for checking email, watching youtube, and general gaming), and a workstation, is NOT the CPU, it's the number of displays connected (and coincidentally, sometimes the type or quantity of GPU), the quality of the displays connected, specialized user interface devices, and the often more radical implementations of system RAM, disk/storage configurations to deal with the nature of the projects. MOST workstations will have either more monitors, more RAM, more GPUs (or a specialized GPU) or more disks (or some combination of these things) than the average "gaming" rig.
Quote:
Both Intel and AMD have 2 sockets for their workstation targeted processors. One for low-to-mid end, and one for mid-to-high end.

Intels "low" end workstation socket is the SAME as the "consumer class" socket. 1150. The E3 series is the same silicon as the CORE series, and drops right onto H81/B85/H87/Z87 motherboards. The FX series chips and the AM3+ platform are very competitive with the capabilities of the E3 series chips installed on consumer class motherboards. In most cases, the CORE series chips fit the need just fine as well.

Most workstations do not demand the special features of the server class motherboards (ECC memory, registered memory, remote control features, etc), and most don't even demand special instruction capabilities of Xeon/AMD chips (VM capabilities, encryption etc)

Socket C32/G34 share the exact same silicon as the consumer AM3/+ socket chips. Socket 2011 CORE/XEON CPUs share the same core architecture as the CORE/XEON series 1155 socket chips.
Quote:
Now you could get an i7 or FX instead of xeon/opteron, you could even use the extra feature of using an unlocked processor to increase relative performance, but even like that, even when using a hexa-core overclocked 4930k, you'll still be way behind a twelve-core xeon. So essentially you'd relate more to the mid-end position than the high-end when it comes to single socket workstation.

Actually, an i7-4930K@4.7-5ghz performs on par or BETTER than the E5-2695V2 in single-user workstation workloads. The only time the 12 core Xeon performs better is in server workloads with dozens or hundreds of VMs. There is no benefit in single-user systems. Performance in single-user apps that can leverage parallelism scale with clock speeds and parallelism equally well within the same CPU architecture. Not ALL jobs can always leverage the parallelism, as such, the overclocked 4930K performs better quite often, and with a lower cost to implement.
Quote:
Workstation needs are very different than gaming and office needs. Workstation oriented processors are mostly useless for things like gaming by design. It's a whole different situation.

The E3-1240V3 is a fantastic workstation CPU, it also performs on par with an FX-9590 in gaming. The things that make CPUs great for workstations also make them great for gaming, and vice versa. AMD and intel use the exact same cpu core architecture on their consumer PC/gaming marketed CPUs as they do on their workstation/server class products. If the situation were totally different, they would be making DIFFERENT CPU architectures to target at each market, but they don't.

AMD/Intel set the standards by which the CPUs will work, developing the instruction sets, compiler standards, etc, and then software development across the board is forced to follow suit. The CPU makers have learned that they can be far more effective if they focus on a single architecture and multiple marketing strategies, rather than trying to maintain multiple architectures for different markets.
Quote:
The 3930k I use here is bundled with a mere Radeon 5850 cause the system here is designed to perform adequately very specific kinds of tasks. It might be considered a high-end desktop part, but for workstation oriented tasks like the ones here, it's merely mid-end. If I had the means to balance the purchase of a 7000$ fifteen-core xeon, I'd even get that.

MANY workstations in this world are nothing more than dummy terminals running a VM sharing resources of 1 server (with a bunch of cores) among dozens or hundreds of users. Your needs are on one end of spectrum, those dummy terminals running VMs are on the other end of the spectrum.... The "middle ground" for what people use as workstations in the real world, is in fact, closer to an i3-4130 performance wise, than a umpteen socket mini-super-computer.

Look at where the "CSM" models are from motherboard manufacturers (boards that maintain support for older standards, like parallel ports, IDE controllers, etc). B85/87 class motherboards. THESE boards, with Pentium/i3/i5/i7/E3 class chips being tossed on them are extremely common workstation class machines in business.
Quote:
Also note that even if the cpu here was a 4930k, it's not the best performing processor out there for gaming (the 4770k performs better on most games, even the 4670k usually does) and it's not the best for workstation loads either (those over-priced fifteen-core xeons are).

Highly conditional nit-picking.
     
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post #204 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Ya, 6300 is good value - that just doesn't make it appropriate to rival a mid (~4670k) to high end (~4930k) system

I believe this is the problem. For INTEL users, you see a 4670k to be a mid-end solution. I tend to feel that the 4670k is a high end solution. Does this CPU ever throttle you in any games or anything? It probably exceeds expectations in performance, which is why you bought it and which is why it is priced how it is.

Edit:
Just to expand my thoughts, when I said I believe this to be the problem, I mean how will we ever truly know what is considered mid end and high end? Who gets to decide that? Where is the concrete line that says the 4670k is mid range? And so on and so forth.

The general consensus that I've seen is that AMD cpus are weak and that Intel cpus are expensive when compared to each other.

Well shoot let's come together and tell AMD to step their game up! And maybe one day when they do have cpus that rival the top dogs at Intel, the price point could possibly come down and they get competitive again. Enough of this e-peen, lets make them work for us! -wishful thinking- tongue.gif
Edited by Razzle Dazzle - 3/25/14 at 9:24am
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post #205 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdocod View Post

various valid points

My bad. I should have mentioned explicitly that I was referring to the needs of the high end workstation segment on my whole post, where you run lots of things at the same time and there's need for extensive parallelism.

The point I wanted to make was that high end for desktops and high end for workstations have different requirements, not that the hardware itself is different, but the way it is categorized.

To be specific of my reasoning, a high end desktop can be a workstation, but it won't be considered high end for heavy workstation loads (for example where you run a development environment and 2-3 instances of your application at the same time).

The same applies to the use of a workstation as a server and vice verse. A workstation can act as a server, but for really heavy use you're better off with a 4P platform. On the other hand, a 4P is overkill for workstation loads since a single individual can not efficiently keep up with managing all the jobs handled to the CPUs (the human cannot keep up in terms of productivity this time).


Now, of course all this doesn't mean that you can't have a high end workstation with a simple dual core processor. You might be doing things that put lots of load to the GPU(s) or need a few professional sound cards. The hardware you heavily use will be high-end if you need it to, but nothing stops you from pairing it with not so high-end component if you don't need them.
post #206 of 355
About "high end" vs "low end" few posts earlier there was pretty good attempt at that in my opinion. It's basically taking all "PC"'s sold at given moment and then split in three parts. How exactly is matter of debate, you can go at it by sales volume or by price or by performance or by price/performance etc. And then it's question how exactly split it in three parts. So that integral of the distribution is equal for all thee parts (giving relatively narrow mid range) or you split it equally between absolute top end systema nd absolute bottom end, etc.
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post #207 of 355
Thread Starter 
Looking back at the OP I made, I think I made some mistakes. Instead of getting theoretical about the future of the 8 core utilization, I think I should have went with the fact that everyone has a different idea of mid-high end and I should have left out the whole future speak because one person brought up the fact that it sounded like wishful thinking. With that being said, I am confident that the general consensus of many people (not necessarily the people on OCN) is that mid-high end is $200-$300 on a CPU and maybe $300 on a GPU. If you compare that caliber CPU and GPU to the vast majority of computers out there, not just DIY but also PCs used in offices, government, workstations, and including laptops and the *cough* Mac... those make up the bulk of PCs out there. If you include them, which I do, then a $200 CPU and a $300 GPU are at least high end. If you get into the ultra niche market where people spend $700-$1000 on a CPU and SLI a 780ti, those make up such a small fraction of the market that, while profitable, they cannot make up more that a few percentage points of the market (This is an assumption on my part but I think this is a nice case to make).

So, in other words, if you make a spectrum with say a Dell Inspiron work computer with an i3 dual core with Intel HD 3000 on one end, and an i7 $1000 CPU with 2 780 ti cards in SLI on the other end, then the $200 AMD FX8350 and Radeon HD 7870 that I have are much closer to that high end than they are to the Dell Inspiron.

If you look at it on a spectrum, then there is NO WAY POSSIBLE that an AMD card can not compete in the high end category. If you want to get nitpicky about benchmarks here and there then yes, an Intel will usually beat out an AMD, but for the vast majority of people who make their PC and use an AMD CPU, they have no problems with their PC and are very happy. I rate a PC like this. If you can get nice framerates at a reasonable price, there is no logical reason to spend more on anything better. My FX 8350 and HD 7870 can play Far Cry 3 on medium-high settings at 40-60 FPS. And to be honest, once you get into a game for an hour or so you do not notice the difference in textures between medium and high. You are more concerned with sniping and planting C4 along the road than you are with the grass' ambient occlusion. Unless the difference is so large that it takes you out of the game, I consider a PC that can give me nice framerates with medium and high quality settings to be mid-high end.
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post #208 of 355
Quote:
I believe this is the problem. For INTEL users, you see a 4670k to be a mid-end solution. I tend to feel that the 4670k is a high end solution. Does this CPU ever throttle you in any games or anything?

Yes, in Planetside 2 i'm often below 60fps on a 120hz monitor due to being CPU bound, in WoW i'm told it'll be the 30's to 40's in 25 man raids and alterac valley when i reinstall, sc2 runs like trash, etc

Everything i play is either GPU bound to the point where it does not matter what CPU you have, or CPU bound to a crippling extent even on Haswell (trying to maintain 120fps on bf4 for example just like you could on quake or CS)

Actually strategy games in general seem to suck for performance because of CPU. Total War (especially rome 2) and Planetary Annihilation are two more examples - it's a pretty common trait in MMO's too, WoW is not the only one there or the worst

If you don't play these types of games and you're happy with 60fps "most of the time", whatever, it'll probably run ok. If you do play them and you want better performance, you'll probably be aiming for a ~£600+ build with a 4670k, which i'd call midrange (£165 CPU, £95 mobo, £35 cooler, £50 8gb RAM, £50 case, £40 PSU, £200 for an gtx760 - that's £635 to pretty much max out a 4670k and have a suitable graphics card)

I see a balanced system with a 4670k at that kind of price to be a mid-level solution, not high end - and a big reason not to take a weaker CPU for such games. If a game is GPU bound, you spend more on GPU to improve performance - why wouldn't you do the same for CPU? Sure, you don't have to - but then again you don't have to upgrade a 260x to an r9 280 for playing Crysis 3. That doesn't mean that the 260x is competitive with the 280 for being a mid-level graphics solution, though
Edited by Cyro999 - 3/25/14 at 6:03pm
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post #209 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsyM4n View Post

My bad. I should have mentioned explicitly that I was referring to the needs of the high end workstation segment...


In an attempt to nail down where "low," "middle" and "high" end is in a market, if we're going to include one extreme, we have to include both ends of it. Just like I pointed out originally that if I include ultra-low TDP desktop parts, then I have to include multi-socket systems on the high end, the result of which is absolutely no change to where the middle ground is. The "fringes" don't change where the primary transitions are, because their implementation is low. Realistically speaking, the number of workstations that are shared resource dummy terminals, vs the number of workstations that are multi-socket builds with 16-64 cores, are both "fringe" areas of implementation, but those extremes "balance" each other out. IMO this means, that the "middle ground" still falls in that i3 - i5 (non-k) territory. an overclocked i5 or FX-8320 is technically on the "high end" of performance for gaming/workstation CPU performance. Choosing the best-in-class part for a particular application is nitpicking to be saved for build threads depending on conditions.


From my perspective, the OCed-i5-4670K/FX-8320 is high end, because it's much closer to the top than it is to the middle in real world workloads. I could just as easily rationalize that high end doesn't start till dual socket 2011 or quad socket G34, but that would mean that I would also have to move the "low end" transition line down below celeron to ultra-low TDP desktop parts and VM dummy terminals, which means everything in the middle, from celeron to i7-4930K winds up in a grey area of "middle-tier." I don't see that as being a useful approach as it provides no differentiation where it is really useful.
Edited by mdocod - 3/25/14 at 8:47pm
     
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8350 990X EVO R2.0 Sparkle GTX460 768MB ballistix tactical 2 x 8GB 
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Toshiiba THNSNH 256GB Enterprise RE3 1TB Asus BD combo drive Artic A30 
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Seasonic G 550W Modular Fractal Design Core 3500 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
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post #210 of 355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Yes, in Planetside 2 i'm often below 60fps on a 120hz monitor due to being CPU bound, in WoW i'm told it'll be the 30's to 40's in 25 man raids and alterac valley when i reinstall, sc2 runs like trash, etc

Everything i play is either GPU bound to the point where it does not matter what CPU you have, or CPU bound to a crippling extent even on Haswell (trying to maintain 120fps on bf4 for example just like you could on quake or CS)

Actually strategy games in general seem to suck for performance because of CPU. Total War (especially rome 2) and Planetary Annihilation are two more examples - it's a pretty common trait in MMO's too, WoW is not the only one there or the worst

If you don't play these types of games and you're happy with 60fps "most of the time", whatever, it'll probably run ok. If you do play them and you want better performance, you'll probably be aiming for a ~£600+ build with a 4670k, which i'd call midrange (£165 CPU, £95 mobo, £35 cooler, £50 8gb RAM, £50 case, £40 PSU, £200 for an gtx760 - that's £635 to pretty much max out a 4670k and have a suitable graphics card)

I see a balanced system with a 4670k at that kind of price to be a mid-level solution, not high end - and a big reason not to take a weaker CPU for such games. If a game is GPU bound, you spend more on GPU to improve performance - why wouldn't you do the same for CPU? Sure, you don't have to - but then again you don't have to upgrade a 260x to an r9 280 for playing Crysis 3. That doesn't mean that the 260x is competitive with the 280 for being a mid-level graphics solution, though

Are you sure that Planetside 2 is not registering 60 fps because you are using a 770? I don't think you are going to get 60 fps on Planetside 2 with graphics turned up at 1080p with a GTX 770. You might get around 45-60 fps but not a steady continuous 60 frames. I have an FX 8350 and Planetside 2 runs perfectly for me. I use a frame count program and I can't remember the name of it because it was bundled with something from Razer and I constantly get steady 50 frames.
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Zen
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