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A counter point to AMD not being good for mid-high end - Page 22

post #211 of 355
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdocod View Post

In an attempt to nail down where "low," "middle" and "high" end is in a market, if we're going to include one extreme, we have to include both ends of it. Just like I pointed out originally that if I include ultra-low TDP desktop parts, then I have to include multi-socket systems on the high end, the result of which is absolutely no change to where the middle ground is. The "fringes" don't change where the primary transitions are, because their implementation is low. Realistically speaking, the number of workstations that are shared resource dummy terminals, vs the number of workstations that are multi-socket builds with 16-64 cores, are both "fringe" areas of implementation, but those extremes "balance" each other out. IMO this means, that the "middle ground" still falls in that i3 - i5 (non-k) territory. an overclocked i5 or FX-8320 is technically on the "high end" of performance for gaming/workstation CPU performance. Choosing the best-in-class part for a particular application is nitpicking to be saved for build threads depending on conditions.


From my perspective, the OCed-i5-4670K/FX-8320 is high end, because it's much closer to the top than it is to the middle in real world workloads. I could just as easily rationalize that high end doesn't start till dual socket 2011 or quad socket G34, but that would mean that I would also have to move the "low end" transition line down below celeron to ultra-low TDP desktop parts and VM dummy terminals, which means everything in the middle, from celeron to i7-4930K winds up in a grey area of "middle-tier." I don't see that as being a useful approach as it provides no differentiation where it is really useful.

This is what I said. If you look at them on a spectrum and put my dad's 2011 model Inspiron on one end, and put a video editing workstation on the other end, then the FX series chips fall much closer to the workstations than the dual core Inspiron.
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post #212 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdocod View Post

~
Hmm, I can see why you end up with this perspective.

When I think of high end here, as high as you can go unrelated to classification, I think of companies using rooms filled with 4P racks and such. With the low end being dummy terminals connected on low-end servers or very low power embedded systems and such.
The thing about terminals is that you can't effectively classify them. They get their resources from elsewhere so their performance is variable. You can't set a predefined classification on them.

When it comes to high-end workstations, what I have in mind is running three or four demanding applications at the same time. With most applications nowadays being multi-threaded you will eventually be limited by a quad-core or even a hexa-core on these scenarios.
Even back in the Pentium 3 days it wasn't so uncommon to be limited by the lack of performance on parallel workstation oriented loads, forcing you to enter what was considered by most to be the server segment, by getting a dual processor setup and such.
post #213 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thready View Post

Are you sure that Planetside 2 is not registering 60 fps because you are using a 770? I don't think you are going to get 60 fps on Planetside 2 with graphics turned up at 1080p with a GTX 770. You might get around 45-60 fps but not a steady continuous 60 frames. I have an FX 8350 and Planetside 2 runs perfectly for me. I use a frame count program and I can't remember the name of it because it was bundled with something from Razer and I constantly get steady 50 frames.

My FPS is fine (in the 200's even, flying a reaver over empty ground) it just hardly stays that way in 50+v50+. It's high numbers that wreck ps2, WoW, sc2, most mmo's, strategy and some FPS - in situations without a lot of players/units, they usually run quite well on much weaker hardware. I value FPS over graphical settings, especially in a first person shooter game - it's just that if you are CPU limited, you generally can't improve FPS by turning down settings

Especially if you benchmark or record and look back, it's quite surprising what you'll see and a lot of people tolerate lower performance without really being too aware of it until they know of better~
Edited by Cyro999 - 3/25/14 at 9:28pm
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post #214 of 355
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

My FPS is fine (in the 200's even, flying a reaver over empty ground) it just hardly stays that way in 50+v50+. It's high numbers that wreck ps2, WoW, sc2, most mmo's, strategy and some FPS - in situations without a lot of players/units, they usually run quite well on much weaker hardware. I value FPS over graphical settings, especially in a first person shooter game - it's just that if you are CPU limited, you generally can't improve FPS by turning down settings

Especially if you benchmark or record and look back, it's quite surprising what you'll see and a lot of people tolerate lower performance without really being too aware of it until they know of better~

Ah. Now I understand better.
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post #215 of 355
Thank you for your perspective on that, Cyro.

I want to ask you (or anyone for that matter) another question regarding this... (and kind of playing devil's advocate as well hehe tongue.gif)

Let's say in your Planetside 2 scenario that you are in a 50v50+ battle... What would you need to run the frames that you desire? Will the i7 (or better) actually make a difference to where you can run it to your desire? Or do you think that the game is actually going to limit you no matter what?

I ask considering I hear a lot that deciding between an i5 and i7 for gaming won't make a big difference, although it sounds like it may?

I truly don't know the answer because I have never used an i5/i7 in scenarios like that.
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post #216 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razzle Dazzle View Post

Thank you for your perspective on that, Cyro.

I want to ask you (or anyone for that matter) another question regarding this... (and kind of playing devil's advocate as well hehe tongue.gif)

Let's say in your Planetside 2 scenario that you are in a 50v50+ battle... What would you need to run the frames that you desire? Will the i7 (or better) actually make a difference to where you can run it to your desire? Or do you think that the game is actually going to limit you no matter what?

I ask considering I hear a lot that deciding between an i5 and i7 for gaming won't make a big difference, although it sounds like it may?

I truly don't know the answer because I have never used an i5/i7 in scenarios like that.
unless the game is designed to run on more than 4 cores (logical or virtual) there will not be any difference in i7 4770k vs i5 4670k at the same clocks. Most games run on 2 cores and some use only one. Newer games are starting to use more than 4 cores but there are not that many that do right now. Bf3, bf4, crytek engine a few more. Its a small segment at this time.

The normal advice is that if the build is for gaming mainly and budget matters. Get the i5 and put the extra $100 into the gpu.
Edited by Wirerat - 3/26/14 at 11:10am
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post #217 of 355
Just made the switch from AMD to Intel. Man, I'm blown away.

Valley ExtremeHD preset, cards at 1100/1500mhz.

FX-8350 @ 5ghz RAM 2400mhz



i7 4770k @ 3.9ghz RAM 1600mhz



I'm not sure if this is because of PCI-E 3.0, vastly better single thread, or both (probably both).

I haven't even started overclocking this thing yet and it blows a 5ghz FX-8350 out of the water.

Skyrim in Eyefinity is a constant 60fps now too with no stutter. With my FX-8350, every few seconds my fps would dip down to 45 or so then go back up, it was basically constant stutter. In some areas my fps would dip down to 30, just walking around Riften did this. Doesn't happen any more.

If you have a high end machine there's only one choice. AMD might be great for budget builds and mid range gaming builds but for high end, it doesn't even compete.
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post #218 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by neurotix View Post

Just made the switch from AMD to Intel. Man, I'm blown away.

Valley ExtremeHD preset, cards at 1100/1500mhz.

FX-8350 @ 5ghz RAM 2400mhz



i7 4770k @ 3.9ghz RAM 1600mhz



I'm not sure if this is because of PCI-E 3.0, vastly better single thread, or both (probably both).

I haven't even started overclocking this thing yet and it blows a 5ghz FX-8350 out of the water.

Skyrim in Eyefinity is a constant 60fps now too with no stutter. With my FX-8350, every few seconds my fps would dip down to 45 or so then go back up, it was basically constant stutter. In some areas my fps would dip down to 30, just walking around Riften did this. Doesn't happen any more.

If you have a high end machine there's only one choice. AMD might be great for budget builds and mid range gaming builds but for high end, it doesn't even compete.
I disagree with the last part. I mean congratz on your new rig and that it works for you, really mean it. But You know full well that there is a host of users in that 8350 owners thread that would disagree, me included. Skyrim on mine with far inferior cards has no real issue running up 75FPS (capped) with full 2K mods. And that is with 1466Ram 7-8-8-23-30 1T with the 8350 @4.84Ghz. So maybe you issues were an isolated issue.
post #219 of 355
I can also do that with my laptop at stock 2K mods and all. I have it capped at 60FPS though
    
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post #220 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReciever View Post

I can also do that with my laptop at stock 2K mods and all. I have it capped at 60FPS though
Keep in mind the X87 instruction set part and the fact it is a CPU bound game far more than GPU.
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