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A counter point to AMD not being good for mid-high end - Page 28

post #271 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by neurotix View Post

That's certainly very interesting and definitely makes a lot of sense.

I guess the question I have for you, then, that immediately stands out: what is the melting point of silicon?

Additionally, if you know this one I'll give you a rep. What's the general max safe temp for a VRM?

My FX 8350 shuts off the entire system when the core temp reaches 90c. It has a built in kill switch to shut the system down. I verified this multiple times. You can damage your chip (maybe) but it will shut the system down before it goes too far. I haven't noticed any changes in my chip after abusing it, and by this time my i7 920 was wanting lower clocks and more voltage.

From my experience, it's really, really difficult to kill an AMD chip and Intel chips are like glass baby. I've taken out a couple of them, one so bad that it wouldn't even get into Windows without a BSOD at 2ghz, when it was a 3.2ghz stock chip. And all I did was bump the voltage like .05v from where I was (barely over max recommended) and then bumped the bus up a touch to break 4ghz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GorbazTheDragon View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bonami2 View Post

the chip dont use 200 300 watt these are at the wall
The FX-8xxx chips can hit 200 watts easily

I don't think it's as easy as you think. My kill-a-watt only jumps about 200w when loading all cores when I'm running 5.1ghz and 1.63v.

I won't be able to look at it for a while, but I plan on doing a write up to look into FX 8350 power consumption when fully loaded between stock (or even lower) and as high as I can push my chip.
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post #272 of 355
wow did not know that amd chip was that strong biggrin.gif
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post #273 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonami2 View Post

the chip dont use 200 300 watt these are at the wall

At 5ghz, my FX-6300 runs at ~180W under full load AT THE CHIP, and I have a fairly "nice" piece from the silicon lottery. (that 180W at the chip translates to over 300W from the wall with VRM efficiency losses, PSU efficiancy losses, and other system components). Some FX-6300s require up to 200-220W at the chip under full load to run stable at 5GHZ. The 8 core chips tend to require around 30% more power under full load than the 6 core for equal clock speeds. At 5ghz a nice example of silicon will still need ~230-250W at the chip. A poorer piece of silicon can require 280-300W at the chip to run those speeds. That means up to ~500W from the wall to run including all other losses.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

don't think it's as easy as you think. My kill-a-watt only jumps about 200w when loading all cores when I'm running 5.1ghz and 1.63v.

I won't be able to look at it for a while, but I plan on doing a write up to look into FX 8350 power consumption when fully loaded between stock (or even lower) and as high as I can push my chip.

I'd be curious to know what you are using to load test, and whether or not you have confirmed the accuracy of your kilowatt with other known loads or measuring equipment. That sounds to me suspiciously like a "stock" FX-8350 power consumption from the wall, which is what would happen with APM enabled. My math says you should be dissipating ~260W at the chip under full load, which would be ~400W from the wall.

Just noticed you said "jumps" 200W... is that with cool-n-quiet and C states enabled or disabled?
Edited by mdocod - 3/27/14 at 8:00pm
     
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post #274 of 355
My FX-8150 draws less than 100W at full load, I've kept it fixed at 3.9 GHz and undervolted it with LLC disabled and is stable, so I have e very good power consumption figure. We just need to make sure that we use minimum required voltage without effecting its stability or performance to get best power efficiency at a particular level od OC.

With stock settings it was ~126W under load, so my settings are god, and it can also deliver a very good gaming performance, I don't know how many people here play games at 1280x1024, when I was playing GTA4 it was 1280x1024 on my 6670 1 GB GDDR5 (900 core and 1150 mem), I used to get a stable 58.5 fps with minimum ~43 fps. I consider that as good.
Edited by imran27 - 3/27/14 at 8:24pm
    
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post #275 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdocod View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bonami2 View Post

the chip dont use 200 300 watt these are at the wall

At 5ghz, my FX-6300 runs at ~180W under full load AT THE CHIP, and I have a fairly "nice" piece from the silicon lottery. (that 180W at the chip translates to over 300W from the wall with VRM efficiency losses, PSU efficiancy losses, and other system components). Some FX-6300s require up to 200-220W at the chip under full load to run stable at 5GHZ. The 8 core chips tend to require around 30% more power under full load than the 6 core for equal clock speeds. At 5ghz a nice example of silicon will still need ~230-250W at the chip. A poorer piece of silicon can require 280-300W at the chip to run those speeds. That means up to ~500W from the wall to run including all other losses.



Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

don't think it's as easy as you think. My kill-a-watt only jumps about 200w when loading all cores when I'm running 5.1ghz and 1.63v.

I won't be able to look at it for a while, but I plan on doing a write up to look into FX 8350 power consumption when fully loaded between stock (or even lower) and as high as I can push my chip.

I'd be curious to know what you are using to load test, and whether or not you have confirmed the accuracy of your kilowatt with other known loads or measuring equipment. That sounds to me suspiciously like a "stock" FX-8350 power consumption from the wall, which is what would happen with APM enabled. My math says you should be dissipating ~260W at the chip under full load, which would be ~400W from the wall.

Just noticed you said "jumps" 200W... is that with cool-n-quiet and C states enabled or disabled?

All power saving stuff disabled, so that might have to do with it. My main rig has a lot of stuff in it. Something along the line of 3 120mm fans in front, 240mm blower, 6 on a radiator, 4 HDs or so, 7970 OCed, water pump, etc.

It idles around 400w (lol) and peak is like 625w or so for CPU stuff. Depends on what exactly I'm doing, but something like a Gentoo stress test where the entire OS uses all available instructions can get things hot. IIRC, if I can push everything at once it breaks 800w or so. I might not be 100% accurate on those numbers though, I've spent the last month backpacking in China and I've got another month of Asia before I get back to my main rig.

Blender's actually how I found the 90c kill switch. I somehow made something in Blender that managed to make temps skyrocket past 90c within a few seconds when rendering while anything else only brought it into the 70s. It took a few times to actually figure out why my computer would just shut off as soon as I started rendering my new project. Thank god I have two monitors and a nice little widget in KDE to show me my temps at all times.

My thinkpad x140e only pulls like 10w for the entire system. I figure that if I really have to care about power consumption I'll just use that, and leave the desktop as the serious beast toy to play with. But electricity is cheap for me, so I don't really care. Plus, realistically, I look at it like if I'm going to spend all this money on a computer, I'm not going to be stingy on power. Plus, even if you (theoretically) had to spend $30 a month for an FX it might be worth it. That costs less than a night out drinking at a bar.
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post #276 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by imran27 View Post

This decreases efficiency of a single threaded tasks.

There is no loss in single threaded performance from enabling hyper threading, though per thread performance will usually take a substantial hit if you schedule two demanding threads onto the same physical core.
Quote:
Originally Posted by imran27 View Post

FX arch is like having an i5 and adding HT in hardware, it's very similar to physically implemented HyperThreading. Only flaw is the single-core performance (IPC) of AMD processors.

Hyperthreading is hardware, but the approach taken by AMD in their Bulldozer and later modules is precisely the opposite one that Intel took with Hyperthreading.

Hyperthreading essentially gives each core two front-ends, so two threads can be injected into the same pipeline. Zambezi/vishera modules take two independent cores and supply them both with a single front-end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by imran27 View Post

Even I keep laughing all the time when I see a Haswell user complaining about FX that it's hot, they say Intel is better since it runs cooler than FX?? doh.gif

How is 62* C hotter than 100* C

Reported AMD and Intel temperatures are not representative of the same thing. You get either a TCASE or Tcontrol reading from an AMD processor. On an Intel part, you get a distance to TJmax reading. TJ is a much hotter area of a part. An Intel chip running near it's 100C TJmax rating will often only have a TCASE temp of 65-75C.

Also, when people say an FX runs hotter, they aren't talking about temperature. They are talking about total amount of heat that needs to be dissipated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by an65001 View Post

According to Core Temp, the maximum junction temperature of the FX-8320/8350 is 90c.

Too bad we have no way of measuring junction temp on any AMD part.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GorbazTheDragon View Post

so half of the performance on each thread.

Scaling is almost never this bad. If you schedule two demanding threads to the same core on an HT enabled part you usually get 55 to 75% of the performance per thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

My FX 8350 shuts off the entire system when the core temp reaches 90c. It has a built in kill switch to shut the system down. I verified this multiple times. You can damage your chip (maybe) but it will shut the system down before it goes too far. I haven't noticed any changes in my chip after abusing it, and by this time my i7 920 was wanting lower clocks and more voltage.

Intel parts have a hard thermal shut down point as well, and it's equally difficult to damage them with short bursts of high temperature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

From my experience, it's really, really difficult to kill an AMD chip and Intel chips are like glass baby.

Then you are putting too much voltage through your Intel parts.
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post #277 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by an65001 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

My FX 8350 shuts off the entire system when the core temp reaches 90c. It has a built in kill switch to shut the system down. I verified this multiple times. You can damage your chip (maybe) but it will shut the system down before it goes too far. I haven't noticed any changes in my chip after abusing it, and by this time my i7 920 was wanting lower clocks and more voltage.

Intel parts have a hard thermal shut down point as well, and it's equally difficult to damage them with short bursts of high temperature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

From my experience, it's really, really difficult to kill an AMD chip and Intel chips are like glass baby.

Then you are putting too much voltage through your Intel parts.

Yeah, but that's my point. I actually ran this FX 8350 at 1.7v and fired up IBT and ran it for a few minutes. The chip is fine and AMD recommended max is 1.55v.

My point is that AMD, you can get away with going past the limits. I have no issues going past 62c or 1.55v for extended periods of time. Every Intel I have ever owned has turned into keychain material at best after running close to recommended max and 80c+ for extended time.

There is absolutely no way you could take any Intel to 1.7v and expect to continue using it for months without it being degraded. That's nearly 10% over what AMD recommends for maximum voltage and I have no issues.

That Intel that I completely totaled, it was only like 1.55v on a 90nm process! That's absolutely insane to me that AMD 32nm can handle voltage better than Intel 90nm.

One of my points though is that this is a significant part of why AMD chips are a lot more fun to play with and overclock. Every Intel I have ever owned and overclocked has at least degraded a little bit because I pushed the limits of what was recommended (I don't care, it's a hobby, if it breaks I just buy a new one, it's not that big of a deal for me).

Meanwhile I fly past the limits of AMD chips like I just dont' care and they don't break. I still have an Opteron 165 I beat the crap out of for years and it's still in service to this day. While my i7 920 system which I OCed has degraded and sits in my closet because it doesn't POST anymore. The only Intel I have remaining that still boots is my very first P4 I built myself, and it's because I didn't beat on it that much and I was just learning how to OC.

But this is why I stick with AMD. I get off on going past the limits of what manufacturers recommend and the fact that I can keep abusing my poor little FX and it still keeps kicking, when I've been through a lot of Intel CPUs that haven't been able to deal with abuse.

I mean, when I built this rig, I could have gone 3930k, but I didn't, because I didn't want to total an expensive chip and from my Opteron experience SOI is so much better at taking abuse than Intel bulk that there's simply no comparison. In fact, one of the things going through my head was that even if I totaled an 8350, I could just buy another one and I'd still spend less than a single 3930k. And the funny thing about it all, is after I put Gentoo on it, I actually beat 3930k in Blender in Windows by a significant margin. And Blender is the most important thing to me because I use it to make money.

I don't really know what to say about it. It's like FX is absolutely the perfect chip for me and I do understand that most people don't feel that way because they don't operate the same way I do.
Edited by sdlvx - 3/27/14 at 9:43pm
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post #278 of 355
My Opty146 definitely degraded, as did my XP-M. The notion of AMD chips being any more robust or immune to EM is laughable.

You wanna talk about keychain material, my 1600+ Palomino is functioning in that role.
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post #279 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by mav451 View Post

My Opty146 definitely degraded, as did my XP-M. The notion of AMD chips being any more robust or immune to EM is laughable.

You wanna talk about keychain material, my 1600+ Palomino is functioning in that role.

Not relevant to this decade, sorry. Bulldozer cores and even K10.5 cores can tank abuse. Not saying it totally can't happen, but you hardly ever see a thread about degrading one of these, but plenty about degrading Sandy, ect.
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post #280 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

Every Intel I have ever owned has turned into keychain material at best after running close to recommended max and 80c+ for extended time.

Unless you are pushing excessive voltages, this is extremely unusual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

There is absolutely no way you could take any Intel to 1.7v and expect to continue using it for months without it being degraded. That's nearly 10% over what AMD recommends for maximum voltage and I have no issues.

That Intel that I completely totaled, it was only like 1.55v on a 90nm process! That's absolutely insane to me that AMD 32nm can handle voltage better than Intel 90nm.

Lithography size is only one factor of many that determines what voltages a part can handle. You are mostly comparing apples and oranges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

One of my points though is that this is a significant part of why AMD chips are a lot more fun to play with and overclock. Every Intel I have ever owned and overclocked has at least degraded a little bit because I pushed the limits of what was recommended.

Intel doesn't recommend anything over stock. VID ranges are not recommendations, they are just representative of how leakage can vary from part to part, while Absolute Max ratings are explicitly warnings of what to stay well away from for even short periods.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

But this is why I stick with AMD. I get off on going past the limits of what manufacturers recommend and the fact that I can keep abusing my poor little FX and it still keeps kicking, when I've been through a lot of Intel CPUs that haven't been able to deal with abuse.

I've abused a lot of Intel and AMD parts. I've never noticed an appreciable durability difference from one brand to another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

The only Intel I have remaining that still boots is my very first P4 I built myself, and it's because I didn't beat on it that much and I was just learning how to OC.

This is ironic because pre-Prescott P4s used aluminum interconnects and were some of the most fragile parts Intel ever built.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

I mean, when I built this rig, I could have gone 3930k, but I didn't, because I didn't want to total an expensive chip

The overwhelming majority of 3930ks will OC proportionally more than the overwhelming majority of FX-8350, on voltages they can survive for years of 24/7 load.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdlvx View Post

after I put Gentoo on it, I actually beat 3930k in Blender in Windows by a significant margin. And Blender is the most important thing to me because I use it to make money.

Then you made the right choice, but I don't buy for a second that comparative durability was a good basis for it.
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