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A counter point to AMD not being good for mid-high end - Page 35

post #341 of 355
the problem with 60hz and 120hz is a crt 60hz destroy at 120 screen


The problem is the screen response time rolleyes.gif
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post #342 of 355
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonami2 View Post

the problem with 60hz and 120hz is a crt 60hz destroy at 120 screen


The problem is the screen response time rolleyes.gif

And I think this goes into technology to the point where my psychology education does not belong. The studies that I learned from, for the most part, did not involve computer displays or anything. Only 1 demonstration did. The traditional studies used physical motion like having a scene on paper and putting a black page between every new picture. At about 30 FPS (or their version of FPS) people were unable to discern the black page. But here is the funny thing, why is it that they did not see the black page but instead saw the picture? They had an equal number of black pages to picture pages. It is because the brain recognizes shapes so excellently that the brain kind of ignored the black pages without the person even knowing it. Our brains are great at ignoring things on their own. I remember the other day I was cleaning my driveway because the house got powerwashed, and an ambulance drove right up behind me in the middle of the street. It didn't have its sirens, but I didn't notice anything was there until my neighbor asked me about it. So anyways, I think the reason why we can see 120 Hz is probably due to the technology more than it is due to our brain. That is my extent of FPS knowledge.
Edited by Thready - 3/30/14 at 3:50pm
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post #343 of 355
Quote:
Actually I guess that is two. Oh sorry forgot, you didn't miss them, you left them out because they don't show what lies you wish to tell. Oh well they are here none the less.

So you're saying that a 4770 is incapable of more than 53fps in bf4?

No, you're stating that in a GPU bound case, all CPU's perform the same - which is very simple logic that everybody already understands
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post #344 of 355
Quote:
Makes sense and the movies were not able to show very fast motion. But I think the problem here would be motion blur. There is a big difference between 120 Hz and 60 Hz when it comes to motion blur, but if I were getting a monitor, there is no way I would pay more for a 120 Hz monitor. I am speaking based on what I learned about video motion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonami2 View Post

the problem with 60hz and 120hz is a crt 60hz destroy at 120 screen


The problem is the screen response time rolleyes.gif

crt has far less motion blur than traditional monitor, mostly because of the methods used to display images

they can have a few milliseconds of motion blur, while a standard 60hz lcd with constant backlight has ~16.7ms+ of motion blur, 120hz has ~8.34+ (those two numbers are just from eye tracking, before stuff like pixel response times) and 120hz strobed can get down to about ~0.5 - 2.0ms

In terms of motion fluidity, there's less gain going up towards like a 480hz monitor. It's already quite good @120, i've not really seen to compare. I can say outright that it would result in the rendering time for frames etc being reduced by a factor of 4 (1-frame lag on 60fps 60hz is ~16.7ms, while on 480hz 480fps it is ~2.08ms - we can benefit a lot for gaming by reducing input lag, there's 8.34ms drop going from 60hz to 120 and more if you go further)

as well as perceived motion blur from eye tracking (main cause of motion blur these days) dropping to 1/4 as much. You can use a strobed or scanning backlight etc to remove motion blur, but flicker is much less of a problem at higher refresh rate too - it's really hard to use @60hz, better at 120, but higher refresh rate would be more ideal for it
Edited by Cyro999 - 4/2/14 at 8:12am
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post #345 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonami2 View Post

the problem with 60hz and 120hz is a crt 60hz destroy at 120 screen


The problem is the screen response time rolleyes.gif
A CRT at 60 Hz can be a little hard on the eyes, that's not a great refresh rate. You need to get it a little higher than that to really be considered a quality display. I've been running at 1600x1200 at 85 Hz for years, although 100 Hz works fine on this monitor. If you're running a CRT at 60 Hz, you might as well be running a low-quality LCD, because only poor quality CRT's (most of which found their way into landfills years ago) can't do better than that.
     
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post #346 of 355
crt destroy lcd


Ok we see it flash if we look close but there is no motion blur
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post #347 of 355
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsc1973 View Post

A CRT at 60 Hz can be a little hard on the eyes, that's not a great refresh rate. You need to get it a little higher than that to really be considered a quality display. I've been running at 1600x1200 at 85 Hz for years, although 100 Hz works fine on this monitor. If you're running a CRT at 60 Hz, you might as well be running a low-quality LCD, because only poor quality CRT's (most of which found their way into landfills years ago) can't do better than that.

You guys know about this stuff better than I do. What I was trying to say is that with projected images from a flop book or a movie projector, seeing a 60 FPS movement is right at the plateau of what we can see movement wise. I did not take into account refresh rates, motion blur, artifacts, ect. If you are speaking about images where the light comes from behind the display, then it can be different. But because the bulk of research about how the brain perceives movement are used with projected images and not 1080p gaming displays (because the universities probably can't even afford them), there is much more that we can learn here. So my knowledge about the Hz in a TV or monitor stops there. When they do projected images like in a movie theater, 60 FPS is about the limit to what we can make out movement wise. When it comes to 30 FPS, that is the point where we can no longer tell one frame from another. For example, if we had the eyes of a spider or an insect and we were watching a movie, we would see black between each frame in a movie because the film is moving. Insects and spiders need that high motion viewing capacity because of predators.

So there are a few limits to how fast we can view motion. If the display gave you 60 FPS with no motion blur, no artifacts, and no color washout, then that would be about the limit of our perception. But since 60 Hz displays can't fully do that because of LCD panels, then 120 Hz displays might be better. Most 120 FPS images that we see use processors in the display themselves. With LG TVs, I realized that it wasn't true 120 FPS, rather, it was the CPU in the TV making "in between" images to give the sense of 120 FPS. Some displays do that and add input lag. When it comes ti input lag, it takes many many milliseconds for us to notice lag. There is no difference between 5 ms input and 1 ms input. Anyone who thinks that is just having the placebo effect. I probably made it seem like a 60 Hz monitor was all you needed but that would be wrong.
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post #348 of 355
Quote:
What I was trying to say is that with projected images from a flop book or a movie projector, seeing a 60 FPS movement is right at the plateau of what we can see movement wise.
Quote:
If the display gave you 60 FPS with no motion blur, no artifacts, and no color washout, then that would be about the limit of our perception.

You are confusing the limit of where we cannot perceive individual frames with some kind of limit where motion would stop appearing smoother or we would not be able to see minor abnormalities in motion clarity

Quote:
When it comes ti input lag, it takes many many milliseconds for us to notice lag. There is no difference between 5 ms input and 1 ms input. Anyone who thinks that is just having the placebo effect.

Two things: Firstly, response time stat on a monitor is to do with pixel transitions, it has nothing to do with input lag. If a pixel takes 5x as long to transition grey to grey and 5x as long for other colors that take longer, then it's visible to us in the form of effects such as ghosting, at any framerate

Secondly, 5ms input lag is a difference enough to be felt. Enabling V-sync on a 120hz monitor can only add about ~8.34ms of input lag at absolute most, assuming you don't drop any frames from it, but it's easily blind testable on vs off.
Edited by Cyro999 - 4/2/14 at 1:01pm
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post #349 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thready View Post

By the time 4K monitors become mainstream (ie trailer park kids can afford one from walmart), there will be another sub $100 CPU that can push them.

Kek'd hard biggrin.gif
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post #350 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thready View Post

You guys know about this stuff better than I do. What I was trying to say is that with projected images from a flop book or a movie projector, seeing a 60 FPS movement is right at the plateau of what we can see movement wise. I did not take into account refresh rates, motion blur, artifacts, ect. If you are speaking about images where the light comes from behind the display, then it can be different. But because the bulk of research about how the brain perceives movement are used with projected images and not 1080p gaming displays (because the universities probably can't even afford them), there is much more that we can learn here. So my knowledge about the Hz in a TV or monitor stops there. When they do projected images like in a movie theater, 60 FPS is about the limit to what we can make out movement wise. When it comes to 30 FPS, that is the point where we can no longer tell one frame from another. For example, if we had the eyes of a spider or an insect and we were watching a movie, we would see black between each frame in a movie because the film is moving. Insects and spiders need that high motion viewing capacity because of predators.

So there are a few limits to how fast we can view motion. If the display gave you 60 FPS with no motion blur, no artifacts, and no color washout, then that would be about the limit of our perception. But since 60 Hz displays can't fully do that because of LCD panels, then 120 Hz displays might be better. Most 120 FPS images that we see use processors in the display themselves. With LG TVs, I realized that it wasn't true 120 FPS, rather, it was the CPU in the TV making "in between" images to give the sense of 120 FPS. Some displays do that and add input lag. When it comes ti input lag, it takes many many milliseconds for us to notice lag. There is no difference between 5 ms input and 1 ms input. Anyone who thinks that is just having the placebo effect. I probably made it seem like a 60 Hz monitor was all you needed but that would be wrong.

Generally speaking, a 120 Hz LCD monitor is a good buy, granted that it's a quality LCD to begin with. I've seen well-made 60's that were better than cheapo 120's.

You really can't compare CRT to LCD when it comes to refresh rates, though. The way CRT's render a display and the way LCD's do it are different, and each technology has its strengths and weaknesses. You don't see too many CRT's anymore, because they're big and bulky, and because so much content has moved from a 4:3 or 5:4 aspect ratio to widescreen, but they do eliminate motion blur. And refresh rates, once you get beyond about 75 Hz or so, don't mean nearly so much on a CRT as they do on LCD.
     
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