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A counter point to AMD not being good for mid-high end - Page 8

post #71 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepor View Post

Yes, that's correct, but how you would you define the "mid-high end" this thread and the other one asked about? There's a whole bunch of stuff you can buy. I want AMD to compete with the top, you know. frown.gif

On Intel's side there's a range that starts with Pentium's for $70, there's i3 for $140, locked i5's around $200, the unlocked i5 for $240, the i7-4770k at $340, and then there's the i7-4930k for $580. Where would you want to compare if you call something "mid-high end"?

Either i5 or i7 shouldn't exist really. The i5 shouldn't have hyper-threading disabled. The i7 should exist at the price of the i5. Locking the CPUs is annoying. I bet for Intel there's not a single cent difference in manufacturing costs between all i5 and i7, except for the LGA2011 six-core stuff of course. If AMD had CPUs for the full range from low end to high end, the whole market would behave differently and everyone could be happy. The list in the last paragraph should actually have totally different prices after the i5. frown.gif

I think perception of PRACTICAL high end and ULTRA high end need to be clarified a bit. Low end CPU's like A-4/A-6 APUs. Pentiums and Celerons are your consumer CPU's that are simply designed for basic tasks and general computing. Now take for example the mid range enthusiast class CPU's from both companies, AMD's FX-4300 and intels i3 4330 are both perfectly capable of playing (MOST) games without much issue at all.. Moving in to what I (myself) consider to be the PRACTICAL high end (as far as gaming is concerned) you get OC'd 6300's competing relatively with locked i5's, after the 6300's incurred cost for the aftermarket cooler and higher grade motherboard they compete relatively and in the same price bracket. Both of these CPU's will provide 60+ fps in basically any game under the sun. CPU's after this point are I what I would call "ULTRA" high end CPU's (as far as gaming is concerned) and provide large diminishing returns when used for the gaming standards used by 95% of gamers out there. The 5% of of gamers that NEED CPU's of this calibur are a niche, and that's why I would consider these CPU's a "niche" as ULTRA high end.

Keep in mind this is from a gaming perspective only. Other workloads reflect the practicality of different CPU's differently obviously. And I am sure my logic is quite variable to some considering "future proofing" however in my opinion I have learned there is really no such thing as really future proofing because we never know what the next gen of hardware/software will bring.
Edited by CMI86 - 3/23/14 at 3:55pm
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post #72 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMI86 View Post

I think perception of PRACTICAL high end and ULTRA high end need to be clarified a bit. Low end CPU's like A-4/A-6 APUs. Pentiums and Celerons are your consumer CPU's that are simply designed for basic tasks and general computing. Now take for example the mid range enthusiast class CPU's from both companies, AMD's FX-4300 and intels i3 4330 are both perfectly capable of playing (MOST) games without much issue at all.. Moving in to what I (myself) consider to be the PRACTICAL high end (as far as gaming is concerned) you get OC'd 6300's competing relatively with locked i5's, after the 6300's incurred cost for the aftermarket cooler and higher grade motherboard they compete relatively and in the same price bracket. Both of these CPU's will provide 60+ fps in basically any game under the sun. CPU's after this point are I what I would call "ULTRA" high end CPU's (as far as gaming is concerned) and provide large diminishing returns when used for the gaming standards used by 95% of gamers out there. The 5% of of gamers that NEED CPU's of this calibur are a niche, and that's why I would consider these CPU's a "niche" as ULTRA high end.

Keep in mind this is from a gaming perspective only. Other workloads reflect the practicality of different CPU's differently obviously. And I am sure my logic is quite variable to some considering "future proofing" however in my opinion I have learned there is really no such thing as really future proofing because we never know what the next gen of hardware/software will bring.

I can agree mostly. its just hard to imagine a 8320 and 4670k as ultra high end.

i think fx6300 and locked I5 are low midrange. unlocked i5,i7 socket 1150, 1155 cpus and 8 core Fx are upper midrange. ultra high is reserved for hexcore intels and above imo.

but amd is barely competing in this upper midrange segment. new intels are coming soon and amd is falling back. which is where these threads are coming from.
Edited by Wirerat - 3/23/14 at 4:10pm
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post #73 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdocod View Post

Neurotix,

For all intents and purposes in desktop application and gaming workloads, the FX chips don't have L3 cache either; instead, they have a huge high latency L2 cache. The L3 cache doesn't generate any meaningful performance improvements on single user systems. The "user-space-available" bandwidth of L3 cache, is no better than system memory on this platform. AMD ran a bunch of simulations and came up with this design for their cache configuration. Unfortunately, it would seem that their simulations were based on server load scenarios with conditions that never happen on a desktop single-user system. The L3 cache is effectively meaningless on FX chips. When the same silicon is placed in the G34 socket, the way this L3 cache is utilized may make more sense, perhaps on multi-socket systems.

There are lots of CPU benchmarks out there to prove this point. The FX-4300 and 760K perform within a few percent of each-other in all mainstream desktop workloads.

How would you compare the performance of your highly overclocked 6300 with your A10-6800k which is basically a 760K with the IGPU correct?
post #74 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdocod View Post

Neurotix,

For all intents and purposes in desktop application and gaming workloads, the FX chips don't have L3 cache either; instead, they have a huge high latency L2 cache. The L3 cache doesn't generate any meaningful performance improvements on single user systems. The "user-space-available" bandwidth of L3 cache, is no better than system memory on this platform. AMD ran a bunch of simulations and came up with this design for their cache configuration. Unfortunately, it would seem that their simulations were based on server load scenarios with conditions that never happen on a desktop single-user system. The L3 cache is effectively meaningless on FX chips. When the same silicon is placed in the G34 socket, the way this L3 cache is utilized may make more sense, perhaps on multi-socket systems.

There are lots of CPU benchmarks out there to prove this point. The FX-4300 and 760K perform within a few percent of each-other in all mainstream desktop workloads.


In relation to this post MDOCOD, how do you compare the real world performance of your highly overclocked 6300 to your wife's A10-6800
Quote:
Originally Posted by damric View Post

Cheap CPUs overclock too. Your i7 that costs more than my whole rig doesn't make any more visible FPS on my 60Hz monitor than my my $80 Athlon.


You have an $80 cpu that probably overclocks very well and that adds to its value. You can buy an i5-4670 for $219 or pay $20 for the privilege of over clocking and pay $239 for a i5-4670K but have the some features disabled. Triple the cost.
post #75 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by damric View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirerat View Post


not understanding your logic.

lets say a demanding game runs fine on 4670k at stock that just came out this year.

what about 3 years from now and new demanding game comes out that requires a gpu upgrade and a new cpu? Except overclocking a 4670k to say 4.2ghz along with gpu upgrade can run it just fine. Cpus last more than one gpu cycle when Overclocking is accounted for.

strong cpu like 2500k for example last many cycles because it overclocked so well. I know people who have paired thier 2500k with the 3rd gpu upgrade now.

The 2500K is still relevant because it's simply a strong workhorse CPU. Overclocking CPU can usually only bridge the gap one CPU generation. Example: Sandy overclocked is as good as a stock Ivy, but not a stock Haswell. Phenom II to Bulldozer is very much an exception, however.

This is completely false. There is a reason that many of us Sandy Bridge owners are reluctant to upgrade to Haswell....the reason being that Haswell is NOT faster than an overclocked SB chip.

A i7-2700K @ 5 GHz (e.g. my setup) is comparable to a Ivy 3770K @ 4.7 ish or a Haswell 4770K @ 4.3-4.4 ish. The problem is, Ivy and Haswell don't overclock as well as Sandy Bridge, so at the end of the day there is little performance difference between the 3 once overclocking is factored in. Good luck finding a 3770K or 4770K that will do 5 GHz on air like my 2700K has been doing for the last 2 years.

As evidenced by the graphs below, the single-threaded difference (basically, the IPC difference) between Haswell and Sandy Bridge is only about 10-15%. The single-threaded difference between Ivy Bridge and Sandy Bridge is less than 10%. Most Sandy Bridge K-chips can easily overclock 35% or more.

55318.png

55321.png
Edited by 996gt2 - 3/23/14 at 5:18pm
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post #76 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirerat View Post

I can agree mostly. its just hard to imagine a 8320 and 4670k as ultra high end.

i think fx6300 and locked I5 are low midrange. unlocked i5,i7 socket 1150, 1155 cpus and 8 core Fx are upper midrange. ultra high is reserved for hexcore intels and above imo.

but amd is barely competing in this upper midrange segment. new intels are coming soon and amd is falling back. which is where these threads are coming from.

Generally speaking yes I completely agree with the brackets you have the CPU's arranged in to. My ranking was more targeted to what one would practically need to game at the standards most commonly used by gamers. Going by what you consider upper mid range no I don't really think amd competes much if at all. There only shining point is highly threaded applications that can fully utilize those 8 cores, but i dont think that is nearly enough to be a viable choice against an i7.
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post #77 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by 996gt2 View Post

This is completely false. There is a reason that many of us Sandy Bridge owners are reluctant to upgrade to Haswell....that reason being that Haswell is NOT faster than an overclocked SB chip.

Yes and No

Haswell is die shrunk , meant for mobile more than desktop making it faster at lower clocks and saving more battery life also Haswell's Fully Integrated Voltage Regulator adds the extra heat (CPU Input @ 1.8v) but allows motherboards to become smaller.
Quote:
A i7-2700K @ 5 GHz (e.g. my setup) is comparable to a Ivy 3770K @ 4.7 ish or a Haswell 4770K @ 4.3-4.4 ish. The problem is, Ivy and Haswell don't overclock as well as Sandy Bridge, so at the end of the day there is little performance between the 3 once overclocking is factored in.

This is true if they are using the same instructions. Haswell was upgraded with 200ish million transistors more than Ivy Bridge to increase it's I.P-C (Instructions per-second) which is called AVX2, FM3 & also other improvements like TSX.

Ideally for now most software won't take advantage of these new "instructions" like when new DirectX version comes out but only matter of time before a common PC game or software will take advantage of it.

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post #78 of 355
I can cherry pick benchmarks too smile.gif
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post #79 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by damric View Post

I can cherry pick benchmarks too smile.gif

Those aren't cherry-picked benchmarks at all. Over at Anandtech there are many threads about "Hasfail" due to its performance not being able to beat an overclocked Sandy Bridge.

Go look at all the benchmarks you want, but the facts remain:

-On average, Haswell is about 10-15% faster than Sandy Bridge, clock for clock
-On average, Haswell overclocks about 10-15% worse than Sandy Bridge

Now as far as responding to OP's original post of why AMD is not good for mid-high end, consider that my 2.5 year old i7-2700K @ 5 GHz is faster than anything AMD has TODAY, overclocked or not. How can AMD even think about competing in the high-end market when their CPUs can't beat Intel hardware from almost 3 years ago?
Edited by 996gt2 - 3/23/14 at 6:37pm
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post #80 of 355
I was wondering why the other thread died, someone created a new one rolleyes.gif

Can we stop speaking theories and quoting benches since anyone and everyone will have something to nitpick about it?

Lets do it like we always do when new tech comes out, bench it and see what results come of it, especially now that most applications should be updated to use them properly.
    
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