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A counter point to AMD not being good for mid-high end - Page 9

post #81 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirerat View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMI86 View Post

I think perception of PRACTICAL high end and ULTRA high end need to be clarified a bit. Low end CPU's like A-4/A-6 APUs. Pentiums and Celerons are your consumer CPU's that are simply designed for basic tasks and general computing. Now take for example the mid range enthusiast class CPU's from both companies, AMD's FX-4300 and intels i3 4330 are both perfectly capable of playing (MOST) games without much issue at all.. Moving in to what I (myself) consider to be the PRACTICAL high end (as far as gaming is concerned) you get OC'd 6300's competing relatively with locked i5's, after the 6300's incurred cost for the aftermarket cooler and higher grade motherboard they compete relatively and in the same price bracket. Both of these CPU's will provide 60+ fps in basically any game under the sun. CPU's after this point are I what I would call "ULTRA" high end CPU's (as far as gaming is concerned) and provide large diminishing returns when used for the gaming standards used by 95% of gamers out there. The 5% of of gamers that NEED CPU's of this calibur are a niche, and that's why I would consider these CPU's a "niche" as ULTRA high end.

Keep in mind this is from a gaming perspective only. Other workloads reflect the practicality of different CPU's differently obviously. And I am sure my logic is quite variable to some considering "future proofing" however in my opinion I have learned there is really no such thing as really future proofing because we never know what the next gen of hardware/software will bring.

I can agree mostly. its just hard to imagine a 8320 and 4670k as ultra high end.

i think fx6300 and locked I5 are low midrange. unlocked i5,i7 socket 1150, 1155 cpus and 8 core Fx are upper midrange. ultra high is reserved for hexcore intels and above imo.

but amd is barely competing in this upper midrange segment. new intels are coming soon and amd is falling back. which is where these threads are coming from.

No offense, but I think you're vastly over-estimating things because you've been hanging around enthusiast forums so much. I have an A4-5000 APU. Quad core Jaguar at 1.5ghz. This thing is more than enough for the average herp derp facebook user. I'd go as far as to say that most other things, for web browsing, light gaming, etc are over-kill after spending a good amount of time with this.

Not to mention the Steam Hardware Survey shows that the majority of CPUs are still dual cores (although quads are very close) .
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post #82 of 355
Too many people make the assumption that because FX has 8 threads, if all 8 are utilized they will be a significantly superior processor. That's not really true - they're good value buys in such a situation, but hardly beat i5, they're neck and neck for video encoding with i5 and that's what i'd call midrange.

The problem is that they don't always keep up. The threads are kind of a requirement, as opposed to a bonus - which really sucks
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post #83 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReciever View Post

I was wondering why the other thread died, someone created a new one rolleyes.gif

Can we stop speaking theories and quoting benches since anyone and everyone will have something to nitpick about it?

Lets do it like we always do when new tech comes out, bench it and see what results come of it, especially now that most applications should be updated to use them properly.

Meh, this debate's been going on since before I joined OCN tongue.gif

Same spoiled kiddies but different names ~

An i5 xxxxK is not a mid-range CPU, when you sample all computers, everywhere biggrin.gif
Edited by damric - 3/23/14 at 6:49pm
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post #84 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by damric View Post

Meh, this debate's been going on since before I joined OCN tongue.gif

Same spoiled kiddies but different names ~

An i5 xxxxK is not a mid-range CPU, when you sample all computers, everywhere biggrin.gif

It's mid range in the sense that there's a processor on the mainstream platform that significantly beats FX and i5. It's midrange in the sense that it's among the sought-out parts for a value oriented yet powerful system, and in the sense that Intel is a quarter away from releasing an unlocked, enthusiast/builder oriented CPU that's more than twice as powerful.
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post #85 of 355
After reading through the book of this conversation from start to finish, I want to jump in. Me reading 8 pages justifies you reading my legnthy response dang it! LOL


Okay, I want to get back to the original post offtopic.gif because at some point this took a tangent somehow talking about intel processors vs AMD and I'm not really sure that was the theme of the post originally. I like theory and future-telling magic balls, so we'll go there.

First, I watched as the first dual core CPUs were released (oh wow, TWO cores in ONE processor?! OHH The Technology!!) and read about then, how programmers were left with the difficult task of modifying their programming to suite the needs of software to actually utilize the technology. At that point in time, I expected this to take a while to adopt, as most major changes do. What has surprised me through the years, is that we are still in that boat today.

Let me clarify what I'm saying. I want to expound on "programmers might be programming their games to utilize 8 cores since that is what consoles are using". The argument of whether Xbox/PS4 uses 4.5, 6, or all 8 cores to game aside, what surprises me the most in where we're at in technology, more specifically programming-wise, is that we need to program this way at all.

With technology, breakthroughs sometimes come from directions you don't expect. Think of a doctor's job before the X-Ray. They were probably in rooms, meeting about how to diagnose the best way to tell if pain was from a broken rib, a heart problem, inflammation...who knew? They probably developed all kinds of archaic ways to figure it out but then low and behold....the X-ray comes and astonishes everyone. No guess work involved.

Now let's move back to this core-processing discussion. Here's what amazes me: we have had what...10 years? Of multiple core processors and programmers anguished to find solutions to making them work effectively with their programs. And STILL no one has come up with either a physical or virtual architecture to solve this problem? Amazing. Couple of quotes come to mind: "Comfort is the enemy of innovation." and "Necessity breeds invention." For a long time now we've had programmers in discomfort and a need (multi-core processing playing well with programming) left unmet. It's overdue fellas. If we're talking theory here, here's mine: There will be an innovation of some kind to utilize all these cores without the need for programmers to specifically program for it.

Now if there's any programming buds reading at this point, you might feel the urge to jump in and scream all the reasons of why "THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!" But that's the exact reason you haven't invented it yourself. We're talking theory and what I see is programmers being able to program a game just like in single core days. And the third party "fix" or whatever it is, to take over, and say "hey, core 0, you take this, core 1 you take this, etc." and When we have 24 cores in our processors, it will simply be a necessity. Honestly, my only surprise is, we've made it to 8, (think about that EIGHT FRIGGIN CORES!) without having this solution implemented. If we are to improve any more, as far as core number goes, yes, this is the direction it's heading.

And back to the original theory, yes, if that happens sooner rather than later, that's going to make the 8 cores, much, MUCH more valuable, because it will be something that can be implemented system-wide. Suddenly AMD's chip that had ALREADY been beaten by Intel just may outperform the intels with a simple software upgrade. Or maybe it's not that easy. Who knows. We're crystal balling here, and I'm an idiot.

As far as AMD vs Intel goes, I'm on the side of the fence that wants to have the latest, greatest, most awe-inspiring technologically advanced system the world has ever seen. But guess what, I'm also on the reality bandwagon that money doesn't grow on trees and I got mouths to feed. As a result, I'm trying to milk my 955BE (until just recently running on DDR2 RAM) out until the wheels fall off. I spend about 30 hours a week gaming if I had to guess, which is excessive, and I got to tell you- I don't even feel like I'm THAT lacking with my hardware. As far as low-end, mid-range, high-end hardware goes, it's all relative. Play on League of Legends and you got people running toasters over there, and 90% of the time I'm loading faster than the other 9 people. I don't play BF4 thankfully, because that would probably suck, but not interested. If I did though, I'm sure I would be bottom of the barrel over there. I have had zero frame rate issues on any game I have actually WANTED to play, and to me, that justifies me keeping hardware, I dunno, maybe that makes me a filthy casual, but I have one 1080p screen @60hz and don't desire more for my experience to be enjoyable. Honestly, I think that puts me within the 90 percentile of gamers, dare I say it, even "PC" gamers.

Now that is not saying that if I were in the market for a new processor (which I may be in soon, simply to upgrade another machine though and move mine over) I would buy an Athlon- I wouldn't. I would probably buy the best I could afford, and I'm currently looking at the FX-6350 and debating the 8 core, waiting out the next generation. I'll buy the reasonable processor and I believe in future proofing because these things generally DO have a longer shelf-life than this community will accept. Most of the people in my town are happy with their dual cores, when they upgrade from their athlons, their in for a sweet surprise. Keep in mind that generations aren't for upgrades, they are for CURRENT PURCHASES. "Time to upgrade because it's been 3 generations" is our mentality. But for the majority of people, they decide based on what's currently being sold, and they have no knowledge of generations. To AMD and Intel this is a residual market of buyers, who are upgrading machines that could be very old. This means that CPUs have shelf life, even with PC gamers. Their consistent improvement of technology from a marketing standpoint is important because it entices me to upgrade an aging machine, still serving it's purpose, from a single core 3.0 DDR1 9800proGPU to an incredible jump. Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock.

Anything is a gamble, but I think AMD will be alright. Intel is beating them clock for clock, hands down, but there's just so much more to consider. Their position in the console market, budget platforms, Hybrid Xfire/SLI, mobile computing, and someone chime in here following closer because I'm sure there's so much more.

The point is- multi-threads won't be such a "problem" soon in my visions. And this may just turn the tables if AMD has been concentrating their efforts on making more threads work. Sooner or maybe later, cross-platforming will be a thing in the past as legacy and stone-age as DOS. The processors we use process data- that's pretty much it. Excited to see where technology jumps in the area of processing data efficiently!
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post #86 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by damric View Post

Meh, this debate's been going on since before I joined OCN tongue.gif

Same spoiled kiddies but different names ~

An i5 xxxxK is not a mid-range CPU, when you sample all computers, everywhere biggrin.gif

True, but doesnt mean we let our credibility falter because were lazy

If we consider all computers everywhere, then I would get a X5650 over anything AMD any day of the week.
    
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post #87 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

It's mid range in the sense that there's a processor on the mainstream platform that significantly beats FX and i5. It's midrange in the sense that it's among the sought-out parts for a value oriented yet powerful system, and in the sense that Intel is a quarter away from releasing an unlocked, enthusiast/builder oriented CPU that's more than twice as powerful.

4670K is a almost low end processor

1. 4960X
2. 4930K
3. 3960X
4. 3930K
5. 990X/980X
6. 4770K
7. 4820K
8. 3770K
9. 3820
10. 4670
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post #88 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Too many people make the assumption that because FX has 8 threads, if all 8 are utilized they will be a significantly superior processor. That's not really true - they're good value buys in such a situation, but hardly beat i5, they're neck and neck for video encoding with i5 and that's what i'd call midrange.

The problem is that they don't always keep up. The threads are kind of a requirement, as opposed to a bonus - which really sucks
Taken out of context maybe. Problem is you have to look at it as a whole not a one situation at a time thing. Overall FX is a quality buy for a majority of uses. In most of these cases that many love to point out, say encoding, the difference isn't at all that huge. And I agree that FX isn't for the professional user, but we here aren't the professional users, we are enthusiasts for the love of the tech. So for us FX is a viable buy that easily brings performance up to 90% of Intels best and on par with a great range of Intel CPUs. I say we stick to the gaming argument and benching seeing how that covers the majority of what we here do. Most of us don't need the fastest encoding, just reasonably timed which a great deal of processors do. For Gaming FX can give superb performance across the range and even now with Mantle unparalleled performance ( I still think AMD CPUs are seeing far greater results with Mantle over Intel, just waiting on more info). Benching is a whole new game, Intel is favored greatly here. But we have to ask ourselves this, "why does Alatar have any AMD CPUs if, as he loves to let us know, they don't fair well in benching?' Simple: AMD can break the 8Ghz barrier, although he has yet to do it.

Any way that is the point I feel is warranted for now.
post #89 of 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durquavian View Post

Benching is a whole new game, Intel is favored greatly here. But we have to ask ourselves this, "why does Alatar have any AMD CPUs if, as he loves to let us know, they don't fair well in benching?' Simple: AMD can break the 8Ghz barrier, although he has yet to do it.

So could the Pentium 4, back in the day.

That still didn't make it faster than an FX-55 wink.gif.

I'm not sure I completely understand the argument that AMD is more fun to overclock, though. Are you saying that FX CPUs can routinely do >5 GHz on air? I have a 2700K that has been running stable for 2+ years at 5 GHz on air cooling, and from what I knew of AMD CPUs, they generally require either a high-end sealed cooler (e.g. H100i) or a custom loop to run 5+ GHz stable.
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post #90 of 355
Let's talk facts.

Fact: This is a sample of all CPUs with associated Steam Accounts. This is a good sample of the gaming PC population. They likely have better PCs than most non-gaming PCs, such as those in your middle-school library.



So just looking at Intel Windows Steam Machines, you have:

A whopping 0.36% with 3.7GHz or above tongue.gif

And almost 85% of the rest are still less than 3.3GHz biggrin.gif

So where do you draw the lines on this chart for mid-range and high end?

rolleyes.gifrolleyes.gifrolleyes.gif
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