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[nvidia's blog] GDC - NVIDIA, AMD, Intel Explain How OpenGL Can Unlock 7-15x Performance Gains - Page 5

post #41 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeemer View Post

Nonetheless all of this transpired after Mantle and I am sure that 5 big dev houses and 15 upcoming Mantle supported games, certainly rushed things a long. I mean for years DX was holding things back and now all of a sudden they want to lower overhead? It always takes one mover and shaker in the industry get the ball rolling.

It might have made the announcement come faster but the tech was already being developed way, way before mantle was announced.

Just the forza demo has apparently been in development about as long as mantle has been announced.

As I said, they didn't suddenly want to lower overhead. Even AMD and DICE claim that this is something that devs have been hammering on for ages by now. And AMD, MS, Intel and Nvidia all claim that DX12 has been in development for a long time by now. That the features have been talked about for about 4-years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durquavian View Post

Lets make this easy. Does anyone have info stating before Mantle any specifics that lead to either discussions yesterday. Not saying they weren't working/speculating before, but the conspiracy theories and baseless accusations serve no purpose.

I don't understand your question.

Are you referring to the charlie conspiracy theory article? Because I'm just repeating what MS, Nvidia, AMD, Intel and qualcomm all apparently say. That mantle, OGL, DX12 etc. all all tackling the same issues. And that they're individual ways of dealing with those issues.

The issue here for AMD, NV, Intel and MS isn't responding to X or Y API. It's dealing with the issues that they've heard about for years. If we believe what AMD, Intel and NV say (as well as MS) this definitely didn't come out of the blue. The different approaches have been worked on for a long time by now.
 
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post #42 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

NV, AMD, and MS have been working on this at the same time. And they have been working on these issues because every dev screamed at them to deal with those issues. Even AMD claims that the idea came from game devs.

Do you think that NV's OGL stuff, and MS running a functional DX12 build with DX12 capable hardware using a DX12 driver came out of nowhere in the last 4-5 months?

Hell, Nvidia's OpenGL presentations have made numerous references to reducing CPU overhead by various means. They even had a presentation around new year about this: http://www.slideshare.net/CassEveritt/beyond-porting . The older presentations (at least some of them) are on that same site as well.

DX12 and OpenGL improvements aren't responses to mantle. They're responses to the same problem that mantle is a response to. The problem that devs have been hammering NV, AMD and MS about for years. And like it or not, AMD, MS and NV are all pretty much saying that these technologies were developed simultaneously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeemer View Post

Nonetheless all of this transpired after Mantle and I am sure that 5 big dev houses and 15 upcoming Mantle supported games, certainly rushed things a long. I mean for years DX was holding things back and now all of a sudden they want to lower overhead? It always takes one mover and shaker in the industry get the ball rolling.

MS had no intention of upgrading DX until Windows 9,just like they locked out DX12 from anything other than W8. The new DX is just a copy of Mantle. XBOX 1's poor performance, plus AMD's Mantle results is forcing them to step-up. Conversely Nvidia's supposedly superior driver team,while maybe cursing the high overhead,also realized it was a source of superiority over the compitition. Same with Intel.The high CPU overhead consistently put their products ahead of AMD's in the reviews.
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post #43 of 98
Anything like this that makes it to final spec/release, especially in the case of OGL, has probably been in development for several years. The idea that Mantle was the driving force to reduce overhead in D3D and OGL is extremely far fetched, even if Mantle has renewed media interest in the topic and prompted the groups behind other APIs to pick up the pace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaded War View Post

I can't wait until something in the graphics department emerges that actually does something significant (like 10x higher minimum FPS).

This isn't likely to happen, unless you are pairing high-end GPUs with very slow CPUs.

High-end CPUs are only rarely the limiting factor now, and reducing overhead will have only modest impacts with them, as we can see with Mantle performance. That doesn't mean we won't see more performance, or more features to take advantage of surplus CPU power, but you aren't going to see huge increases in frame rates
Quote:
Originally Posted by i7monkey View Post

Faster performance through software = less gpu sales

Disagree.

Stagnant graphics/game quality will lower GPU sales more. If unlocking extra performance via better drivers and more streamlined APIs allows newer games to actually look appreciably better, more people will be inclined to upgrade.
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post #44 of 98
Nice to hear that dev's are being heard.
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post #45 of 98
Hasn't valve being saying this about opengl in regards to performance over dx?

It be nice to see dx replaced with opengl. No more MS doing its bs with dx. Less proprietary software and more open software is a good thing.
Edited by orlfman - 3/21/14 at 3:03pm
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post #46 of 98
So maybe DX12 has been in development for the last 4 years, however what exactly MS was working on remains unclear. How long has AMD been working on Mantle, according to AMD dev outcry was the reason Mantle exsist in the first place. Some seems to not want to give AMD any credit whatsoever.
post #47 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redeemer View Post

Some seems to not want to give AMD any credit whatsoever.

Some seem to want to ensure AMD gets all credit whatsoever.

I understand neither want.
post #48 of 98
They are saying they will have 7-15X less overhead than DX. Not 7-15X the results or polys or shaders, less overhead. % of the overall workload is the overhead?

Lets apply this logic to a TCP frame. If I got 7-15X less overhead on TCP I can save 38*.9 bytes = 34 bytes!!!! So lets add that to our old payload of 1462 , to give us 1496! Which is a really just a 2.3% increase. I know its not that clear cut, and with things like voice where their payload is 64Bytes and not 1400 , yes there will be a dramatic increase there. Not to mention the ACKs, but my point still stands.

In this day and age, no one can make huge leaps like 7-15x performance. Do you think Intel has a chip thats 5x more powerful than whats out now? If you said they have one thats 1.5 - 2X i will impressed actually.

With something that has been around for so long, and yet no one though of this architecture which would be waaaaaaay better surprises me.

This goes back along the lines of AMD's Mantel. Mantel has gains in some areas and losses in others, but have we seen anything past 2x improvement of frame-rate, no far from it actually. The ONLY time i think something like this will be possible is if AMD and Nvidia agree to standardize some stuff that would make the developers able to code more optimally like they would actual hardware. With that, i can see a 2-3x gain TOPS.
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post #49 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrzev View Post

In this day and age, no one can make huge leaps like 7-15x performance. Do you think Intel has a chip thats 5x more powerful than whats out now? If you said they have one thats 1.5 - 2X i will impressed actually.

I'm cheating but... Xeon Phi is a chip that was a few times more powerful than what was out (...due to different architecture and limitations to specific workloads). tongue.gif



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post #50 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

I'm cheating but... Xeon Phi is a chip that was a few times more powerful than what was out (...due to different architecture and limitations to specific workloads).

True, just like I said with the TCP, with Voice it would be a huge difference. Another example is ASCI miners. If you wana farm bitcoins, ASCI miners are much more efficient than a graphics card, but I doubt it can run Crysis on it.

As for the Xeon chart... some marketing stuff is involved in that.
http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/performance-briefs/xeon-phi-product-family-performance-brief.pdf

Notice that that there was http://ark.intel.com/products/75283/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E5-2697-v2-30M-Cache-2_70-GHz in-between that and the Phi. It increased by 50% on that jump going from 32nm to 22nm and from 115 TDP to 130 TDP which is defiantly a nice gain tho. With those Phi's it has 2x TDP with the same 22nm, so im pretty sure they just combined 2 of the E5-2697v2 together. It took them 1.5 years to get that 50% increase, and just 0.5 years to stack 2 of them. Graphics cards do this too i.e. Radeon HD 6990, Radeon HD 7990.
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