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post #31 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicornΒ View Post

The MEX controller is an MDX controller with 33% more jiggahertz so it runs at 400MHz. Firmware and the updated NAND are the more likely culprits.

I consider firmware to be part of the controller implementation. I doubt NAND was updated significantly since write speed drops to basic 840 level once you've gone through the TurboCache. Really, the SLC-like TurboCache is the 840 EVO's saving grace and it's what allows it to perform comparable to the best MLC SSD's despite the slower TLC NAND.
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post #32 of 53
Thread Starter 
Considering how a Seagate 600 holds up against an almost-identical Corsair Neutron, no, firmware and controller are two totally different aspects.

Post-buffer write speeds aren't quite 840 bad. They are ~33% faster, though that might just be from a faster controller.
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post #33 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicornΒ View Post

Considering how a Seagate 600 holds up against an almost-identical Corsair Neutron, no, firmware and controller are two totally different aspects.

Post-buffer write speeds aren't quite 840 bad. They are ~33% faster, though that might just be from a faster controller.

I should have qualified my statement with "in Samsung's case" since you're right, firmware plays a significant role with Marvell and LAMD controllers. As for post buffer write speeds, I do believe the difference on the 120-250 GB models is just 10-20 MB/s which is certainly not 33% faster.
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post #34 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rui-no-onnaΒ View Post

As for post buffer write speeds, I do believe the difference on the 120-250 GB models is just 10-20 MB/s which is certainly not 33% faster.

doh.gif You are correct. I swear it was a lot better than just that, like 170MB/s on the 120GB EVO vs 120MB/s on an equivalent 840.
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post #35 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicornΒ View Post

doh.gif You are correct. I swear it was a lot better than just that, like 170MB/s on the 120GB EVO vs 120MB/s on an equivalent 840.

AnandTech puts HDTach of the 120GB 840 EVO at 150MB/s. The 840 was at 130MB/s, iirc.
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post #36 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicornΒ View Post

Never said low-end. However, TLC does have some inherent disadvantages. Write speeds, for example, are much lower than an equivalent MLC drive just because of how the NAND works. Lifespan shouldn't be a concern, but it is a disadvantage. It isn't one that will affect more than 0.1% of users however.

I don't get all this TLC hate. Looking at benchmarks, the EVO (TLC) has far better writes than the M500 (MLC) and even beats the M550 (MLC) by small margin. Where exactly are people getting this from? When comparing 256GB and bigger, there's like no difference in writes between them.

I have 2TB of EVOs in Raid 0. At the guaranteed 1,000 P/E cycles that's 2 petabytes of writes before NAND failure. That's worst case scenario. Every single company that has stressed these has gotten at least 2,500 P/E cycles before failure on EVOs... or roughly 5 petabytes of writes with the capacity I am using. I get 1,050MB/s writes on these, with none of that turbo cache enabled, this is the same as other consumer MLC SSDs.

A consumer buying MLC is wasting money unless they get it at the same price as TLC. The only time a consumer should buy MLC is when they want a small 32-64GB cache SSD that will be trashed constantly (like 100+ GB/day), otherwise it is better to just go TLC, get a much larger drive, and the durability will go through the roof. TLC's durability quickly becomes a moot point when you get to 512GB or more.

In my case of 2TB, unless my math is incorrect, even at an insane 250GB/day of writes with 2TB of TLC NAND it will take around 20 years to reach 2,500 P/E cycles. Most people won't keep the same SSD for more than 5.
Edited by Murlocke - 3/22/14 at 8:24pm
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post #37 of 53
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MurlockeΒ View Post

...unless my math is incorrect...

It is. Each of your EVOs has 1TiB of NAND, or 1024GiB on the PCB. After some overprovisioning and allocation for the write buffer, you end up with 1000GB (1TB) or 931.5GiB available for storage, but 1024GiB being used. Now, if we assume Samsung's 1000 P/E cycle rating is accurate, then we get:

1000 cycles * 1024GiB/cycle * 1.024^3GB/GiB * 1PB/1 000 000GB = 1.1PB of writes before death.

If we assume your claim of 2500 cycles, then it's just the above times 2.5 (2500 cycles / 1000 cycles), so 2.75PB before death.

And if we look at the somewhat more accurate 1500 cycles (at least, that's my impression from the endurance tests) then it's the first one times 1.5, so 1.65PB before kicking the bucket.

All of that is based on a single drive, and my numbers show one taking 30 years at 250GB daily. Your RAID array would take 60 years to kill, or only 15 at 1TB every day. That seems off, but I think it's actually right or at least reasonably close. Or totally wrong, because I really, really do not want to have to go back and check my math.


As I said, lifespan is not a real issue. It would be like if governments started taxing 95% of your income above [currency symbol]1 billion. Sure, there would be a huge outrage from all sides, but it would not affect more than a handful of people. Regarding slow write speeds, past a certain capacity, yes, the NAND will no longer be a bottleneck. Rather, the interface or the controller will. However, the only way the EVO compensates for TLC's speed in lower capacity models is by using it as if it were SLC. Otherwise, we'd be back to the barely-bottlenecked-by-SATA I speeds found in the vanilla 840. M500s aren't the best drive to compare with, since the 128Gib modules roughly half the potential speed compared to 64Gib modules. SanDisk Ultra Plus? Fair comparison, and they smash 840s and post-buffer EVOs. I'm not sure of any other Marvell drives off the top of my head unfortunately.
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post #38 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicornΒ View Post

It is. Each of your EVOs has 1TiB of NAND, or 1024GiB on the PCB. After some overprovisioning and allocation for the write buffer, you end up with 1000GB (1TB) or 931.5GiB available for storage, but 1024GiB being used. Now, if we assume Samsung's 1000 P/E cycle rating is accurate, then we get:

1000 cycles * 1024GiB/cycle * 1.024^3GB/GiB * 1PB/1 000 000GB = 1.1PB of writes before death.

If we assume your claim of 2500 cycles, then it's just the above times 2.5 (2500 cycles / 1000 cycles), so 2.75PB before death.

And if we look at the somewhat more accurate 1500 cycles (at least, that's my impression from the endurance tests) then it's the first one times 1.5, so 1.65PB before kicking the bucket.

All of that is based on a single drive, and my numbers show one taking 30 years at 250GB daily. Your RAID array would take 60 years to kill, or only 15 at 1TB every day. That seems off, but I think it's actually right or at least reasonably close. Or totally wrong, because I really, really do not want to have to go back and check my math.


As I said, lifespan is not a real issue. It would be like if governments started taxing 95% of your income above [currency symbol]1 billion. Sure, there would be a huge outrage from all sides, but it would not affect more than a handful of people. Regarding slow write speeds, past a certain capacity, yes, the NAND will no longer be a bottleneck. Rather, the interface or the controller will. However, the only way the EVO compensates for TLC's speed in lower capacity models is by using it as if it were SLC. Otherwise, we'd be back to the barely-bottlenecked-by-SATA I speeds found in the vanilla 840. M500s aren't the best drive to compare with, since the 128Gib modules roughly half the potential speed compared to 64Gib modules. SanDisk Ultra Plus? Fair comparison, and they smash 840s and post-buffer EVOs. I'm not sure of any other Marvell drives off the top of my head unfortunately.

Thanks for the correct(?) numbers. Even if both of our numbers are off, it's long enough not to worry. tongue.gif

I think the #1 thing to consider as a consumer when buying an 256GB or larger SSD is price per gig. All of them will provide complete overkill real time performance, more durability than 99.9% of consumers need, and last longer than they'll ever want it.
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post #39 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by MurlockeΒ View Post

I think the #1 thing to consider as a consumer when buying an 256GB or larger SSD is price per gig. All of them will provide complete overkill real time performance, more durability than 99.9% of consumers need, and last longer than they'll ever want it.

Exactly. While the original 840 wasn't particularly attractive back when it was just released and had clearance sales on the Samsung 830 to contend with, the 840 EVO can compete with high performance MLC drive thanks to its clever controller and firmware. Really, its only competition in the high capacity range is the M500 and at 1PB writes minimum for 1TB EVO, longevity isn't much of a problem even if you do 1TB worth of writes per day.
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post #40 of 53
I forgot where I read it but an article that I saw said that by 2020 kids won't know what it was like to boot a slow PC because by then SSD's/Flash Storage will have completely replaced platter drives. So, I guess its getting there it's just not fully there yet.
 
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The White Dragon
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Logitech G930 Review
Logitech Wireless Gaming Headset G930 with 7.1 Surround Sound
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