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[Pando] Extent of Google/Apple's Wage & Job Fixing "Cartel" Exposed - Page 5

post #41 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by b.walker36 View Post

Yes and no. Its true that management decisions need to look to increase shareholder value but not at the cost of the company. The value the company gives to its employees/Costumers is what separates an Apple from a Dell. Apple prides itself on its relationship with its consumers and they have hands down some of the best support in the world, add onto that they treat their employees very well from what I have read. Apple knows that treating employees well and customers drives better margins for them in the long run. However this doesn't always work, a straight hardware company like a widget producer may be better off with lower CS and employee satisfaction and just concentrate on quality of product and increased manufacturing capabilities to drive margins. Its so subjective to the industry and company that all of us pretending we know whats going on is silly.

Edit: Take a look at starbucks. Their coffee is not worth the price, but it is normally the best experience for getting coffee from any major chain. I would care to wager they could pump up the stock easily but not buying fair trade coffee, not providing the level of benefits to employees and cutting other corners. However starbucks has a reputation they hold and they believe that reputation will provide better margins in the future.

Dell treats their employees extremely well, I worked for them for a few years, I can say that first hand.

Also, define "Cost of the company", because as long as it increases Shares value, they are obligated to do it. What U.S. Corporate laws break down to is "protect the shareholders, by any means."

EDIT:

You are correct in that companies have various means to increase share value, and still look good, and companies are able to do that. The problem is that these avenues are typically more risky than other avenues, and there is a fear this causes.

The fear is in leadership and if they take the more difficult path, and fail, will they face legal charges for not taking the more secured and easy path. You get into this very very very very very gray area of what was the "right", as per the law, way to go.

Part of the reason we as a small Corporation are in the process of reclassifying as a Partnership.
Edited by PostalTwinkie - 3/24/14 at 11:14am
    
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post #42 of 72
No they state that they must protect shareholder value, value can be perceived in different ways. A guy like me who invests for retirement value lies in blue sky research i.e. things that will be valuable in a couple decades. A day trader want to see movement daily or quarterly because they win no matter I take the long view they take the short, because America is an instant gratification society the short always wins. Take tech giant Apple, Apple is up 40% since Jobs (peace be upon him) died but because it's don from it's all time high people are screaming for Cooks head because he's not looking out for share holder value.
 
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post #43 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

Dell treats their employees extremely well, I worked for them for a few years, I can say that first hand.

Also, define "Cost of the company", because as long as it increases Shares value, they are obligated to do it. What U.S. Corporate laws break down to is "protect the shareholders, by any means."

I was comparing dell and apple in the CS department.

"as long as it increases Shares value, they are obligated to do it" That is extremely false, and borders on blatantly lying. Take Apple for example, they could increase EPS very easily by lowering their expenses in the CS department or in their Retail Stores. In the short run it would boost margins and look really good thus increasing shareholder value. They are not forced into this, The board looks at all these factors and determines what they think is the best course for longevity and shareholder value.

It is not a case of an idea is raised and: Good for shareholders, yes no matter what. There are things that would be good for shareholders that would eventually drive the company into the ground allowing the rich and powerful to get out before the greater public. That is the reason you have boards.
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post #44 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanyChris View Post

No they state that they must protect shareholder value, value can be perceived in different ways. A guy like me who invests for retirement value lies in blue sky research i.e. things that will be valuable in a couple decades. A day trader want to see movement daily or quarterly because they win no matter I take the long view they take the short, because America is an instant gratification society the short always wins. Take tech giant Apple, Apple is up 40% since Jobs (peace be upon him) died but because it's don from it's all time high people are screaming for Cooks head because he's not looking out for share holder value.

Thus is the problem my friend, no one seems to care about the long term, they want it RIGHT NOW ON MY PLATE GIVE IT TO ME!

A recent exception to this was Amazon, they posted a huge loss for Q3 or Q4 of last year, due to building more warehouses and distribution. The earnings call came and some people tried to flip, and Jeff simply said something like "We are Amazon, we built a whole bunch of new warehouses. We will get it back through customer satisfaction and over the long run".

This is why Amazon and Apple are so successful, their leaders weren't afraid of getting in hot water over SHORT TERM numbers, they look at the future, they look 5+ years down the road, and aim for that. This is a very important trait, one that made Steve Jobs so amazing, and guys like Jeff from Amazon so amazing. They both seen the future, and went for it, not the short term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by b.walker36 View Post

I was comparing dell and apple in the CS department.

"as long as it increases Shares value, they are obligated to do it" That is extremely false, and borders on blatantly lying.

No it isn't, here let me rephrase it in a way that might be a little more clear.

Corporations, mainly those publicly traded, can not knowingly take actions that would pose a reasonable risk to the shareholders. Going back to my "very very very very very gray" statement...

If leadership is given two options on a particular course..

A) Slightly dirty, might make someone cry, but super secure in terms of shareholder interests

or

B) Squeaky clean, no one gets hurt, but has measurable risks in terms of shareholder interests.

That leadership is going to go with option A 99% of the time. Why? Because if they go option B, and it backfires, they now have to answer to a bunch of angry shareholders throwing the book at them. Best case scenario leaderships heads roll, worst case someone goes to jail.

EDIT 2:

Let's take this one step further, and look at something we see all the time with Corporations...

If a Corporation can make a move that is "illegal", and if they don't get caught they make millions upon millions, but if they get caught it is a small fine of say $100,000. They are going to make the "illegal" move, and not care about the law. It will just be another situation of taking a reasonable risk to increase values.

Which is a bit funny because this situation almost completely contradicts the first example I gave. Which just speaks more towards how screwed up our Corporate laws are in this country.

At the end of the day, no matter what, when it comes to big business they operate on a Risk vs Reward structure. If they do X what is the worst that can happen? Does that outweigh the benefit of doing X?
Edited by PostalTwinkie - 3/24/14 at 11:28am
    
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post #45 of 72
I'm also going to throw out that there is no legal obligation to increase shareholder value. I'm going to quote Wikipedia but feel free to post something else that proves it wrong.
Quote:
This management principle, also known under value based management, states that management should first and foremost consider the interests of shareholders in its business actions. (Although the legal premise of a publicly traded company is that the executives are obligated to maximize the company's profit,[18] this does not imply that executives are legally obligated to maximize shareholder value.)

Value based management is a management philosophy not a law. Management is required to do whats best to improve profits, how that's done is a debatable thing. But the fact is that you all who are saying they have to do things in the interest of shareholders is wrong. If management went against profits to increase shareholder wealth and it could be proven they would be breaking the law. The exact opposite of what some of you have said in this thread.
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post #46 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

Thus is the problem my friend, no one seems to care about the long term, they want it RIGHT NOW ON MY PLATE GIVE IT TO ME!

A recent exception to this was Amazon, they posted a huge loss for Q3 or Q4 of last year, due to building more warehouses and distribution. The earnings call came and some people trd to flip, and Jeff simply said something like "We are Amazon, we built a whole bunch of new warehouses. We will get it back through customer satisfaction and over the long run".

This is why Amazon and Apple are so successful, their leaders weren't afraid of getting in hot water over SHORT TERM numbers, they look at the future, they look 5+ years down the road, and aim for that. This is a very important trait, one that made Steve Jobs so amazing, and guys like Jeff from Amazon so amazing. They both seen the future, and went for it, not the short term.

Yeah, but the investors don't see it like this for Amazon. Jeff Bezos looks to the future for the company for longevity and survivability through thick and thin but the investors aren't happy. They are looking for instant money on their returns. He was pushed over to increase the pricing for Amazon Prime which didn't go over so well with the customers. If you play it like the investors want they will get the profits they want early but then your company will come down crashing and burning.
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post #47 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by b.walker36 View Post

I'm also going to throw out that there is no legal obligation to increase shareholder value. I'm going to quote Wikipedia but feel free to post something else that proves it wrong.
Value based management is a management philosophy not a law. Management is required to do whats best to improve profits, how that's done is a debatable thing. But the fact is that you all who are saying they have to do things in the interest of shareholders is wrong. If management went against profits to increase shareholder wealth and it could be proven they would be breaking the law. The exact opposite of what some of you have said in this thread.

I see your information, and raise you with this....

biggrin.gif
Quote:
Shareholder Lawsuits

Two types of lawsuits against directors may be brought by shareholders: shareholder class action lawsuits and shareholder derivative lawsuits. The difference between the two is largely a difference in form. In a shareholder class action lawsuit, a shareholder is appointed to represent a class of plaintiffs, namely, the other shareholders of the corporation who have been harmed by the actions of the defendant director. Shareholder class action lawsuits are particularly useful for action against directors of large public companies that have thousands of shareholders. In a shareholder derivative lawsuit, a shareholder represents the corporation itself, rather than its shareholders, and sues for a wrong committed by the director against the corporation itself for which the corporation refuses to seek redress, or "make right." Before filing a shareholder derivative lawsuit, the shareholder must first demand that the corporation redress the injury, unless such a demand would be obviously futile. The shareholder may sue the director on behalf of the corporation only if the corporation -- effectively, its directors and officers -- refuse to redress the harm for which the lawsuit is to be filed.

Source

Essentially, if shareholders feel they were "wronged" in some way, they can sue. A very quick way for this to happen is to not protect their interests. Going back to my example above, of situation A and situation B. If that company goes B instead of A, and it works out, they are in the clear. If it doesn't then they open themselves up to being accused of "wronging" the shareholders, especially if shareholders find out that option A was on the table and it wasn't taken.

Now, while at the end of the day the shareholders may not win, there is still the stress and cost involved of fighting that off.

These situations are rare, but they do happen, and business leadership operates with that in the back of their mind. Along with the insane laws on the books, laws that often make little sense.

EDIT:

So again, people are very quick to come down on corporations, when they don't even understand how they have to operate. They just put on the Tinfoil hat and go to work slamming them. Yes, there are clear cases of companies doing REALLY bad things that were REALLY greedy, but that doesn't mean they all do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anoob View Post

Yeah, but the investors don't see it like this for Amazon. Jeff Bezos looks to the future for the company for longevity and survivability through thick and thin but the investors aren't happy. They are looking for instant money on their returns. He was pushed over to increase the pricing for Amazon Prime which didn't go over so well with the customers. If you play it like the investors want they will get the profits they want early but then your company will come down crashing and burning.

Even the mighty have to bend to their shareholders at times. Which just highlights how difficult it can be fore these big companies at times.

I still find huge value in Prime Membership, even with the rate increase.
Edited by PostalTwinkie - 3/24/14 at 11:38am
    
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post #48 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

I see your information, and raise you with this....

biggrin.gif
Source

Essentially, if shareholders feel they were "wronged" in some way, they can sue. A very quick way for this to happen is to not protect their interests. Going back to my example above, of situation A and situation B. If that company goes B instead of A, and it works out, they are in the clear. If it doesn't then they open themselves up to being accused of "wronging" the shareholders, especially if shareholders find out that option A was on the table and it wasn't taken.

Now, while at the end of the day the shareholders may not win, there is still the stress and cost involved of fighting that off.

These situations are rare, but they do happen, and business leadership operates with that in the back of their mind. Along with the insane laws on the books, laws that often make little sense.

EDIT:

So again, people are very quick to come down on corporations, when they don't even understand how they have to operate. They just put on the Tinfoil hat and go to work slamming them. Yes, there are clear cases of companies doing REALLY bad things that were REALLY greedy, but that doesn't mean they all do it.
Even the mighty have to bend to their shareholders at times. Which just highlights how difficult it can be fore these big companies at times.

I still find huge value in Prime Membership, even with the rate increase.

Those types of lawsuits are not around the same principal of what everyone in this thread is saying. Those two types of suites directly relate to on of the following:

1: I specific board member doesn't disclose his close relationship with a competitor and works with them in a price fixing. Shareholders sue the board member.
2: Company A is making a product that in all their shareholder meetings tout as the greatest thing since sliced bread and they have all their patents in order. Later turns out their patents were pending they all get denied and the stock drops. Shareholders sue due to misleading information.

**I realize there will be different scenarios but I wanted to give examples.

If a company decides to invest more in CS service to help strengthen their brand thinking it will improve profits and it doesn't work shareholders cannot sue. If company A spends and extra 100mm this year on CS and it drives down EPS and they have less revenue and smaller margins the shareholders cannot sure unless they can prove some gross negligence or criminal activity.

What you posted and actually being legally bound to put their interests above all else is not the same.
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post #49 of 72
You guys are only speculating, but I HAVE BEEN THERE I KNOW!!

I will tell you right now that when I had a job interview in Sacramento for an IT job that it was under a staffing Agency... They wanted to start me off at 12 dollars an hour AND I HAVE a degree!!

They were not clear on when the contract would be up or if I would even lad the job permanent at all.... These guys wanted to USE ME for 12 FREAKING DOLLARS an hour! I make a little over 50k a year NOT using my degree outside of the IT field... WHAT THE HELL.


This article makes complete sense to me! I bet they own Volt Staffing services too.... I would not be surprised seeing as they are always looking for tech support for apple. Those guys get paid pennies and they don't even have to know anything about apple products except for what is Taught to them in the office....

Anyways... this is crap, its going to catch up with them one way or another... I don't give a crap we could all live life like its Revolution.... I don't give a crap.... companies are sucking us dry... Gotta love new ways to of "Advanced-Slavery".
    
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post #50 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankzro View Post

You guys are only speculating, but I HAVE BEEN THERE I KNOW!!

I will tell you right now that when I had a job interview in Sacramento for an IT job that it was under a staffing Agency... They wanted to start me off at 12 dollars an hour AND I HAVE a degree!!

They were not clear on when the contract would be up or if I would even lad the job permanent at all.... These guys wanted to USE ME for 12 FREAKING DOLLARS an hour! I make a little over 50k a year NOT using my degree outside of the IT field... WHAT THE HELL.


This article makes complete sense to me! I bet they own Volt Staffing services too.... I would not be surprised seeing as they are always looking for tech support for apple. Those guys get paid pennies and they don't even have to know anything about apple products except for what is Taught to them in the office....

Anyways... this is crap, its going to catch up with them one way or another... I don't give a crap we could all live life like its Revolution.... I don't give a crap.... companies are sucking us dry... Gotta love new ways to of "Advanced-Slavery".

I don't say this to be mean, but....

There is an over abundance of people with "IT" related degrees. The article we are looking at here is really targeted towards the best of the best, the cream of the crop, the super duper over the top amazing engineers. People who are in super high demand, people who have shown skills that the average person with an "IT" degree doesn't have.

Obviously I don't know your situation, or your background, but I think it is important to note that just because someone has a degree in IT, doesn't mean they are skilled in the right ways.

Everything I have gotten out of this situation is that these agreements were targeted at preventing companies from poaching their lead engineers, people of exceptional skill that are already being hugely compensated.
Edited by PostalTwinkie - 3/24/14 at 1:46pm
    
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [Pando] Extent of Google/Apple's Wage & Job Fixing "Cartel" Exposed