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post #91 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerITGuy View Post

Extremely late to the party, but excellent post nonetheless.

+rep

Another thing that's bothering me a little bit with all of this is that Microsoft (or was it NVIDIA?), is claiming that they've been working on Direct3D 12 for years now (4 IIRC), which IMO has to be complete BS.

If that was really the case, then why did they release and hype Direct3D 11.2? just for tiled resources? really?, IMO they were completely content with Direct3D's place in the API space, before Mantle of course. Another point to that is: Just after Mantle was announced, we heard from John Carmack and Tim Sweeney, basically saying that Mantle was a bad idea, but they somehow missed to mention that Direct3D 12 was coming with all of these improvements? that argument would have completely destroyed AMD's technical direction with Mantle.

I don't think developers would have pushed this hard for a close to the metal API from NVIDIA or AMD knowing Microsoft was working on Direct3D 12, it simply doesn't add up.

Now, with that said.

I really like the direction the gaming development community is headed, this will translate into better gaming experiences for all of us, and we have to give Mantle lots of credit for this IMO (even if it dies in the coming months [which will not happen]), just as we would have to give NVIDIA lots of credit if G-Sync becomes the standard for monitors/TVs.

Nvidia said that they only started working on DX12 the past year (2013). They said they started discussing how to reduce resource overhead 4 years ago, but every DX release tries to reduce resource overhead somehow so it's nothing but talk. In fact. Microsoft made a huge deal out of Tiled Resources for DX11.2 and how it could significantly reduce texture loading onto VRAM.

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/177407-microsoft-hints-that-directx-12-will-imitate-and-destroy-amds-mantle
Quote:
In fact, as some of you may recall, an AMD executive publicly stated a year ago that there was no “DirectX 12″ on the Microsoft roadmap. Microsoft responded to those comments by affirming that it remained committed to evolving the DirectX standard — and then said nothing more on the topic. Then AMD launched Mantle, with significant support from multiple developers and a bevy of games launching this year — and apparently someone at Microsoft decided to pay attention.

We’ve spoken to several sources with additional information on the topic who have told us that Microsoft’s interest in developing a new API is a recent phenomenon, and that the new DirectX (likely DirectX 12) will substantially duplicate the capabilities of AMD’s Mantle.

http://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http://www.hardware.fr/focus/89/amd-mantle-interview-raja-koduri.html
Quote:
The big question of course relates to the view that Microsoft could see a threat and do not appreciate this development. In a roundabout way, Raja Koduri tells us that AMD has announced its intentions to Microsoft and that he did not object even encouraged this initiative. If Mantle returns somehow compete DirectX, the cornerstone of Microsoft's dominance of the PC game, the API could also be very useful to the new Xbox.

I think it's pretty clear that DX12 is in fact, a new development that came up sometime after AMD told MS about their intention to start working on a low-level API for PC. They probably let Mantle go first to gauge developers' reactions or to have something to serve as a proof of concept or model.
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post #92 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoxile View Post

Nvidia said that they only started working on DX12 the past year (2013). They said they started discussing how to reduce resource overhead 4 years ago, but every DX release tries to reduce resource overhead somehow so it's nothing but talk. In fact. Microsoft made a huge deal out of Tiled Resources for DX11.2 and how it could significantly reduce texture loading onto VRAM.

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/177407-microsoft-hints-that-directx-12-will-imitate-and-destroy-amds-mantle
http://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http://www.hardware.fr/focus/89/amd-mantle-interview-raja-koduri.html
I think it's pretty clear that DX12 is in fact, a new development that came up sometime after AMD told MS about their intention to start working on a low-level API for PC. They probably let Mantle go first to gauge developers' reactions or to have something to serve as a proof of concept or model.

Excellent post, and thanks for sharing those articles with us mate.

So it wasn't NVIDIA that made that claim after all.

EDIT: So I found the slide I was looking for, it wasn't NVIDIA, it was Intel that claimed they've been "deep" in development on Direct3D 12 with Microsoft for years now. Here:

post #93 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerITGuy View Post

Excellent post, and thanks for sharing those articles with us mate.

So it wasn't NVIDIA that made that claim after all.

EDIT: So I found the slide I was looking for, it wasn't NVIDIA, it was Intel that claimed they've been "deep" in development on Direct3D 12 with Microsoft for years now. Here:

The 4 years remark by Nvidia was from their blog post that went live shortly after the conference.

http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2014/03/20/directx-12/
Quote:
Our work with Microsoft on DirectX 12 began more than four years ago with discussions about reducing resource overhead. For the past year, NVIDIA has been working closely with the DirectX team to deliver a working design and implementation of DX12 at GDC.
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post #94 of 203
I have a good feeling I know where "Nvidia has been working on DX12 for four years" comes from.

http://fudzilla.com/home/item/34279-nvidia-talks-directx-12-support

Take a look. Notice how it contradicts so much of the other sources? And the fudzilla main page caption for this article is something along the lines of "nvida works on DX12 for FOUR YEARS"

The people making the claim that nvidia has been working on DX12 for four years are the type of people who only read headlines or skim over articles, instead of reading the whole thing.

Nvidia needs to play word games with DX12. Part of Nvidia's marketing success is to always look like a leader. There are Mantle benchmarks where 290x is twice as fast as 780 ti. So it's in Nvidia's best interests to talk about DX12 as much as possible while berating Mantle.

I called this a long time ago. Mantle is going to divide the gaming community between Nvidia and Microsoft vs AMD and all the game developers Nvidia doesn't pay off with "The Way It's Meant to be Paid" program or whatever they call bribing developers for performance gains while crippling competition these days. And if you don't believe me, there have been situations where "Nvidia Optimized" titles ran much faster on AMD hardware after changing the vendor string to Nvidia, but I suppose that's a different topic entirely.

I'm not overly worried about it though. Mantle already compiles to DX code. Even if DX12 becomes serious, you will probably be able to develop in Mantle for Linux/OSX ports and then just do some tweaking for DX12. Meanwhile you'd be locked into Windows (and who knows what version MS is going to force you to use if you want to use DX12) if you only developed for DX12. And if the rumors of DX12 being very similar to Mantle are true, Nvidia will basically be creating Mantle compatible cards. However JHH is too much of an arrogant jerk to ever admit it. So Nvidia will be in an awkward position of having basically a Mantle API implementation in their drivers while spreading FUD about how terrible Mantle is.

So we're probably going to get to see a really, really good FUD war coming up here pretty soon regarding DX12 vs FUD. I'm looking forward to it, because it looks like one side already has a huge advantage when it comes to the FUD, as sites like FUDZILLA are living up to their name by stretching to meaning of "working on" something to include things like "vaguely discussing"
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post #95 of 203
Quote:
There are Mantle benchmarks where 290x is twice as fast as 780 ti

Mantle benchmarks where 780ti is held back to half performance by cpu/api and 290x isn't

I think it's important to make the distinction between hardware capabilities and hardware being unable to be utilized because of other factors
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post #96 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Mantle benchmarks where 780ti is held back to half performance by cpu/api and 290x isn't

I think it's important to make the distinction between hardware capabilities and hardware being unable to be utilized because of other factors

In all fairness AMD's driver quality holds their video cards back exponentially. I'm sure with their restructuring they obtained some better programmers, I imagine by this summer we should see exponential performance gains all the way around for AMD too. I would also love something more intuitive than catalyst control center with more optional tweaks at my finger tips.
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post #97 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerITGuy View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Extremely late to the party, but excellent post nonetheless.

+rep

Another thing that's bothering me a little bit with all of this is that Microsoft (or was it NVIDIA?), is claiming that they've been working on Direct3D 12 for years now (4 IIRC), which IMO has to be complete BS.

If that was really the case, then why did they release and hype Direct3D 11.2? just for tiled resources? really?, IMO they were completely content with Direct3D's place in the API space, before Mantle of course. Another point to that is: Just after Mantle was announced, we heard from John Carmack and Tim Sweeney, basically saying that Mantle was a bad idea, but they somehow missed to mention that Direct3D 12 was coming with all of these improvements? that argument would have completely destroyed AMD's technical direction with Mantle.

I don't think developers would have pushed this hard for a close to the metal API from NVIDIA or AMD knowing Microsoft was working on Direct3D 12, it simply doesn't add up.

Now, with that said.

I really like the direction the gaming development community is headed, this will translate into better gaming experiences for all of us, and we have to give Mantle lots of credit for this IMO (even if it dies in the coming months [which will not happen]), just as we would have to give NVIDIA lots of credit if G-Sync becomes the standard for monitors/TVs.

+1

You left off the part where M$ straight up told us DX11.xx would be good enough, and that "we don't need to evolve into DX12" surprise surprise, that article is completely gone now, I can't find it for the life of me.
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post #98 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by skupples View Post

+1

You left off the part where M$ straight up told us DX11.xx would be good enough, and that "we don't need to evolve into DX12" surprise surprise, that article is completely gone now, I can't find it for the life of me.

Also true. I remember reading something along those lines as well.
post #99 of 203
I do how every believe that what we are getting as DX12 may be what was planned for dx11.3/.4/.5/.6 & so on, it just lit a fire under M$/NV's arse to get it done within this decade. Remember, until Hawaii NVIDIA had no competition.
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post #100 of 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerITGuy View Post

Excellent post, and thanks for sharing those articles with us mate.

So it wasn't NVIDIA that made that claim after all.

EDIT: So I found the slide I was looking for, it wasn't NVIDIA, it was Intel that claimed they've been "deep" in development on Direct3D 12 with Microsoft for years now. Here:


NV likely started working hard on DX12 when they obtained AMD's confidential internal documents.
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