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Another radspace question. - Page 4

post #31 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashuiegi View Post

of course 1200 rpm is way too low for 60 and 80 mm rad, with slow fans they don't give you any benefits , but if you push pull with faster fans they can cool way more , nearly scale up , it depend on fpi too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpecialEdT View Post

All of this data is really pretty in depth and interesting.

In my real world setup I can say that my 12x Noctua 140mm ULN fans mounted in push/pull configuration on my 2x Black Ice GT 420 Extreme radiators + my 240mm Koolance radiator with 2x Noctua 120mm PWM fans for push configuration really do not make much noise. In fact the whole rig is about four feet from where I'm sitting now and I can just barely hear the fans, for comparison - an optical drive that is spinning up produces about ten times louder sound than what I'm hearing now...

The Koolance PMP-400 pump in my Koolance RP-1250 by far produces the most noise, but thats simply because I have it set to run at full speed as my loop is quite long - I do have a second PMP-400 and reservoir that I'm mounting on the rear of my case tonight that should allow me to run them at the same time at a much lower level, I'll see in a few hours I guess smile.gif

I really can't comment w/o knowing the fan rpm. My box is open only because I still haven't done the sleeving and I'm oft in there testing this or that and moving temp sensor around and the box sits about a foot back and to the left from my lappie on a L-shaped desk.....the desktop monitor and KB is on the left so I just spin my chair 90 degrees to work on the desktop. The fans, the pump, the everything is completely dead silent up to about 900 rpm. I can't speak to the optical as I haven't used it since building the Windows ISO.

Unlike temperature, noise is relative and depends upon the users tastes and the environment.. To me, any noise is unacceptable while doing normal work activity .... I'll put up with a little noise while stress testing but nothing over 1200 rpm. I find things like the H100 annoying enough that I won't be in the same room. I can hit 4.4 Ghz on air quite assuredly, the investment in WC to gain 0.1 or 0.2 GHz isn't not really as attractive as completely eliminating noise. Although I work from a Home Office, I do have 1 or 2 employees that I have in here a couple of days a week and listening to that in a work environment would be too distracting.

To others, they play with headphones on and don't mind 5500 rpm fans on 30 fpi rads.... I have never had a car (Porsche 911, Pontiac GTO, Datsun Z), that loud smile.gif
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post #32 of 47
Quote:
At 4.6 Ghz and 1.38, under RoG Bench (Image editing, H.264, Open CL w/ AVX) I'm no where near 200 watts but I hit 1.48 volts when AVX instructions present). If testing is done at 1.4 VID, that puts ya at 1.5+ under adaptive when AVX present so few peeps willing to go there.

http://extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp (Using CPU calculator NOT PSU Calculator)
4.6 at 1.38 = 135 watts
4.8 at 1.45 = 150 watts
5.0 at 1.50 = 155 watts

More Haswells are limited by voltage than temps .... even a stock Haswell will break 85C under OCCT stress testing on stock cooler.

These are the most commonly listed voltage recommendations I have seen.

Decent air cooler for voltage levels above 1.15V.
1.20V-1.23V requires use of closed loop water coolers or top tier air cooler (H110 / Phanteks PH-TC14-PE, Noctua DH-14)
1.24V-1.275V dual radiator water cooling solutions are advised.

Those power numbers seem too low to me and your temps/cooling reccomendations are a little crazy too - i can use about ~1.27vcore with HT on or ~1.35v with it off without hitting 80c on air and there's plenty of peeps using more aggressive volts than that

Where are you measuring power, and why use adaptive voltage?
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post #33 of 47
if i remember right you need to be more around 1500-1800 to get good result from thick rad , for some fans this mean noisy but for other like GT or alpenfohn wingboost , it s dead quiet still.
at this point the hdd or even the wall socket/transfo can make more noise ,.... the noisiest thing in my computer is my mpc35x at full speed ,and it way more noisy then good fans at 1500-1800 rpm
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post #34 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashuiegi View Post

if you go external just do it like me , a big fat rad on a stand next to the pc. The phobya nova 1080 60mm rad cost about 130 dollar i think but a single 360 60 mm rad will cost you up to 100 dollar.
with the extra connection between them it will had up restriction and pressure drop , so the best solution is the fat one.




This is exactly the rad I am looking for outside the case, where did you get it?
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post #35 of 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Those power numbers seem too low to me and your temps/cooling reccomendations are a little crazy too - i can use about ~1.27vcore with HT on or ~1.35v with it off without hitting 80c on air and there's plenty of peeps using more aggressive volts than that

Where are you measuring power, and why use adaptive voltage?

I wouldn't consider anything but adaptive voltage....these are production boxes. Interested in everyday performance and 100% availability as opposed to "competitive overclocking" or gaming boxes where downtime is not a big deal. Longevity is a concern as these boxes are depended upon in a production environment for up to 20 hours a day when facing a tight deadline, and downtime is very expensive. Of course the fact that they can kick some tail gaming off hours is considered a very appreciated side benefit.

As for the power numbers you questioned, they are right out of the linked PSU calculator..... which IIRC is based upon the widely accepted formula

OC Wattage = TDP x ( OC MHz / Stock MHz) x ( OC Vcore / Stock Vcore )^2

I have always found it to be pretty much on target, and the numbers have matched the reviews I have read over the years. Never ran into anyone else who has taken issue with it. As for measuring power, the usual utilities (AiSuite, HW Monitor, HWInfo64) ..... or "usual suspects" as I like to call them. I don't consider these too accurate .....but I also measure it "at the wall". So when I see the power rise during a specific test, I am reading in real time the impact it has at the wall. Correlation between wall and utilities is surprisingly good as long as ya remember to account for PSU efficiency. I don't expect to be as they say in the industry "balls on accurate" (to borrow a term from "My Cousin Vinny") .... but certainly enough to know whether I'm in 130 or 200 watt territory.

As for temps, use the BIOS, and again "the usual suspects" utilities, have 3 individual thermistor inputs, 4 separate water temp sensors and 2 air sensors that provide continuous real time front panel temp display. These come in handy to compare relative power uses and correlate with corresponding water temperature rises

As for the rad cooling data, again, they aren't my numbers.....hard, actual data from martinsliquidlab..... it's really hard to find anyone who has trouble with martins testing.

But, the proof is in the proverbial pudding as the saying goes ..... I calculated a max theoretical load of 792 watts, sized the rads for 60% of that load in push / pull at 1250 rpm and Delta T of 10C. Since the rad space turned out to be 64%, I shud have expected about 9.4C w/ P/P.....11.34C with just push. I am doing under 10C with just push....so either my fans are much better than martins or the method is still a bit too conservative.

As for the voltage / cooler recommendations again these aren't mine but quoted from manufacturer's enthusiasts guidelines .... i.e. Asus RoG Forums and the like. I'm not worried about the cost of replacing a CPU from abusing it.... but having a machine down in the office can cost me up to $2k a day. So for Haswell under those conditions, I am really not comfortable exceeding 1.4V and 75C stress testing with test suites composed of real world applications like RoG Real Bench ..... when I see the voltage spike bouncing up and down and peaking up to 1.48 under AVX instructions, I get a bit queasy.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashuiegi View Post

if i remember right you need to be more around 1500-1800 to get good result from thick rad ,

Here's Martins data .... of course it depends on what % improvement each person considers "good" or worthwhile, but to my mind, 2 - 6% doesn't get me enthused......at 2 - 6%, aesthetics and fit are gonna play more heavily into my decision than that small of a performance increase.

http://martinsliquidlab.org/2012/04/12/alphacool-nexxxos-ut60-360-radiator/4/

ST30 @ 1400 rpm = 199 watts
XT45 @ 1400 rpm = 204 watts and 2.5% gain on cooling for 50% increase in thickness
UT60 @ 1400 rpm = 210 watts and 2.9% gain on cooling for 33% increase in thickness
Monsta 80 @ 1400 rpm = 223 watts and 6.2% gain on cooling for 43% increase in thickness

ST30 @ 1800 rpm = 242 watts
XT45 @ 1800 rpm = 257 watts and 6.2% gain on cooling for 50% increase in thickness
UT60 @ 1800 rpm = 269 watts and 4.7% gain on cooling for 33% increase in thickness
Monsta 80 @ 1800 rpm = 281 watts and 4.5% gain on cooling for 43% increase in thickness

And from a cost standpoint .... an XT45-420 for example costs ya $85 or $0.20 per watt at 1800 rpm..... those extra 12 watts for a UT60 cost ya 8.4 times as much at $1.67 per watt ....ouchies !
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashuiegi View Post

for some fans this mean noisy but for other like GT or alpenfohn wingboost , it s dead quiet still. at this point the hdd or even the wall socket/transfo can make more noise

The GT's are *advertised* .... and we must take all advertising with a grain of salt .... at 28.5 dBA .... and that's not mounted on a rad .... nor does it mean 15 of them (240 + 360 in P/P + 5 case fans).

As we can see here..... 15 fans at 28.5 per sounds like 40.3 dBA

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/adding-decibel-d_63.html

If ya wanna get a feel for what that noise level is, a whisper is 15 dBA .... now who minds a whisper ? Ever been in a movie theater with two peeps behind ya whispering thru the whole movie smile.gif ? But, by way of comparison, the maximum acceptable sound pressure level for an office or classroom is considered to be 35 dBA.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/sound-pressure-d_66.html

At 35 dBA, "speech interference and communication disturbance" are noted effects.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/decibel-dba-levels-d_728.html

Now of course to someone playing BF4 with earphones or 550 watt Logitech 5500s, fan noise is meaningless..... if ya have ya mp3 player going with ya puter in ya room with a closed door, fan noise will not be an issue. But in a work environment, when you are trying to concentrate, it's disturbing.....regardless of which condition you are in among those, 40 dBA is certainly audible. So you have to base your system design on the environment the box will be in..... what is acceptable in one instance will not be acceptable in all.l

I keep mine at 450 - 850 rpm and the SP140s fans are *advertised* at only 19 dBA at 1250 rpm ..... about half as loud as the GTs are *advertised*. They manage to maintain a Delta T < 10C with everything (other than synthetics) I have thrown at it. Furmark can get it up to 12.8C .... P95 manages just 5C or 2C over idle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashuiegi View Post

the noisiest thing in my computer is my mpc35x at full speed ,and it way more noisy then good fans at 1500-1800 rpm

Yes, the 35x's can be noisy at full speed .....it was Martin's review that prompted me to opt for the 35x2 on PWM.... typically runs from 45% to 70% of speed (1800 - 3200 rpm) .... that speed boost comes in handy under heavy GFX loads. At 2000 rpm, I can see as much as 3C Delta T from 1st rad in to 2nd rad out.
Edited by JackNaylorPE - 3/27/14 at 9:36pm
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post #36 of 47
Quote:
Longevity is a concern

You can manually set voltage without those spikes and have it drop to 0.7 or less during idle, even have it behave exactly like adaptive aside from "can go above set voltage levels"

I use x264 (encoder that realbench uses) for testing a lot too


I took a look at that calculator - if i use my approximate stats:

stock = 3700mhz @1.08vcore

oc = 4800mhz @1.4vcore

tdp utilization = 90%

Then this says 183w?

I think your number is from assuming a stock vcore that is very high (1.25 for 3.5ghz base, 3.7ghz 4-core-turbo), as well as basing the result on the TDP - i5 and i7 have the same TDP, yet i7 consumes about 10-20% more power in a multithreaded workload, so it's not "balls-on accurate" thumb.gif

that falls more in line with what i would expect, though.

Note that's my stock voltage - i can actually clock to 4ghz and be prime stable on that volts, but it uses it for 3700 turbo - it's different chip to chip, but then again, so is power usage - that's why slapping the same tdp sticker on all of them is silly. Some chips turbo around 0.1v less than mine, some use 0.15v more

By taking a final result of 4700@1.4, assuming power at stock to be 84*0.9w, giving a stock voltage of 0.95 or 1.25 changes the estimated power from 232w to 134, these kinds of calculations are just highly sensitive on having correct base numbers - and it's hard for us to take those unless you measure the power usage of a certain voltage under a certain load quite carefully - it seems to be a good formula though, thanks

That formula ties in pretty much exactly with Sin's chart:
c1411aab_yxx.png

If we take the base of 40x@1.02v, 83w (100% tdp on calculator) and use it to calculate 50x@1.36v, it gives 187w - the chart says 182 (both measured from mobo 12v), so i'd imagine both to be quite accurate, and stand by my original statement of 1.4v allowing you to approach the 200w range
Edited by Cyro999 - 3/27/14 at 8:02pm
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post #37 of 47
i m in europe , in france atm , so i got it from here http://www.docmicro.com/
Edited by Ashuiegi - 3/28/14 at 12:12am
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post #38 of 47
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashuiegi View Post

i m in europe , in france atm , so i got it from here http://www.docmicro.com/

Let's see if they ship to The Netherlands

Wow, this is badass:
http://www.docmicro.com/pieces/Phobya-Radiateur-Xtreme-SUPERNOVA-1260_10092.html
Edited by TTheuns - 3/28/14 at 1:22am
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post #39 of 47
yeah i got the 1080 60mm because this one was out of stock and they were in sold 25% off , got it for 108 euro, they sell some feets or the stand like i got too , think it s in the rad accessories , they got some nice shroud and gasket too , nice little website , they got the EK line of pots for extrem cooling too.
Damn i see in 3 month they got about 30 euro more expensive , made a good move to pick this up in sold
Edited by Ashuiegi - 3/28/14 at 5:21am
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post #40 of 47
Thread Starter 
I found the 1080 46mm thick on a Dutch site, and it's quite cheap. (Around the price of a 360 Monsta) Getting myself the feet as well.
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Ducky Shine 3 DK9087 Cherry MX Blue White LED EVGA SuperNOVA 1300 G2 Corsair Graphite 230T Logitech G600 
AudioAudio
Labtec Arena 485 2.1 Beyerdynamic DT 990 Pro 
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The Regulator
(14 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i7 5930K MSI X99S SLI Plus MSI GeForce GTX 780Ti G.Skill Ripjaws 4 16GB 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Crucial MX100 Corsair Hydro Series H105 Windows 10 Pro 64 bit AOC i2369Vm 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Ducky Shine 3 DK9087 Cherry MX Blue White LED EVGA SuperNOVA 1300 G2 Corsair Graphite 230T Logitech G600 
AudioAudio
Labtec Arena 485 2.1 Beyerdynamic DT 990 Pro 
  hide details  
Reply
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