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[IGN] Last of Us is coming to Playstation 4 - Page 12

post #111 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by pez View Post

You're right, I broke out my analogy finder plugin on Google Ultron and sniffed it out.

However, I pointed out the improper use of an analogy. Is there something wrong with that? Just because I'm not racing to support your opinion, or fighting against the others in this thread does not mean you need to get upset about it. You're arguing semantics and opinions on something the thread isn't about.

You are arguing politics.

I'm just saying it isn't nice to edit someones post in order to push your own agenda. Highlight don't remove. Much of what he said later in his post was very much relevant and you just conveniently removed/ignored that part.
    
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post #112 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booty Warrior View Post

"Terrible?" I don't think the game looks terrible by any standards. Obviously it doesn't meet the fidelity levels of the best looking PC titles, but that's pretty elite company and a very short list to begin with.

Not even the best looking PC games. Hell Shadow Warrior 2013 looks better and that was a PC game made on a much smaller budget by a much smaller development team.
 
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post #113 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

I'm just saying it isn't nice to edit someones post in order to push your own agenda. Highlight don't remove. Much of what he said later in his post was very much relevant and you just conveniently removed/ignored that part.

I'm not sure quite why you're beefing with me, but here goes:

I didn't 'edit' his post. I changed nothing of his post. I quoted word-for-word a snippet of what I was addressing. This is perfectly acceptable, unless I'm taking something out of context. I didn't attack other points of his post and just exclude them. Now that would be wrong of me, and then make your argument valid. However, this is not the case.

Also, I didn't delete his post into oblivion. If people want to read it, they are perfectly capable of doing so. It was a wall of text and it was completely and utterly unnecessary for me to copy it all over again to take up space. That is all there is to it.

Stop trying to read into things that aren't there.

The rest of this debate has been healthy and fairly controlled. I don't agree with everything being said, but I've kept my rather redundant opinion to myself.
 
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post #114 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by pez View Post

I'm not sure quite why you're beefing with me, but here goes:

I didn't 'edit' his post. I changed nothing of his post. I quoted word-for-word a snippet of what I was addressing. This is perfectly acceptable, unless I'm taking something out of context. I didn't attack other points of his post and just exclude them. Now that would be wrong of me, and then make your argument valid. However, this is not the case.

Also, I didn't delete his post into oblivion. If people want to read it, they are perfectly capable of doing so. It was a wall of text and it was completely and utterly unnecessary for me to copy it all over again to take up space. That is all there is to it.

Stop trying to read into things that aren't there.

The rest of this debate has been healthy and fairly controlled. I don't agree with everything being said, but I've kept my rather redundant opinion to myself.

I think you did take him out of context and by doing so omitted the point he was actually making.

His post was
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomlord52 View Post

How is it apple's to oranges. It's one game vs. another game. Both do the same thing: render things in real time. So, when you go around giving out "Best Visuals" or "Best Technology" awards, you MUST compare all things equally - regardless of the hardware they run on. THIS is my major complaint. Games like TLOU, Killzone, etc. look good.... for a console game. However, these awards don't take into account platform - you never see "best Xbox graphics" or "best PC graphics" - it's just "best graphics". Hence, You HAVE to compare games like Metro and Crysis 3, on PC, at absolutely the highest settings against the likes of TLOU; and it's obvious which one wins.

As for the price, that's also not true. When TLOU came out, the PS4 was not available yet, and the PS3 was still around $300. And even then, no one is going to go out and buy a PS3 now (well, maybe a few would). Now, let's look at a PC. You don't need a $2000 PC for Crysis 3 to look better than TLOU. Let's get a $200 R9 270. It'll run C3 at 1080p, 30fps at the highest settings. Already, we're FAR better. Then, you can either shove that into an existing PC, or pick up the rest. Here's a ton of cheap builds. Let's take the "Next-Gen crusher", and swap the 7850 for the R9 270. You're now sitting on a ~$500 tower that has 1TB of storage to the PS3's 120gb. It's also far more powerful. So, $500 vs. about $300, and it has the added bonus of being a PC. Not really "Apples to Oranges", is it?

As for B2S, Bit_reaper nailed it: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Then its an award for compromise, and people really need to stop 'hyping' TLOU graphics. No one is excited that a new Golf MK7 has a top speed of 179km/h. Everyone is excited that the Koenigsegg One:1 has a top speed of 440km/h - despite one being $30k, and the other being somewhere around $2.2m. No one is going to give an MK7 the "top speed" award - it doesn't make sense.
K, I'll just let bit_reaper talk. He already living in my head.
I think this sums up the problem. They're giving out technical awards, and people are praising it for technical reasons, when really, the only justification is in a subjective category - artistic style. We can literally use math to prove that, for example, Crysis 3's faces look better than TLOU. How? Well, take a look at the facial mesh. Both were based off of real people - hence, whichever is closest to the real-world target is technically better. In this case, Psycho's tesselated head IS more accurate in terms of mesh. Joel's is lower poly, and NOT tesselated. Hence, it has sharper edges, and is mathematically a less accurate interpretation of the real thing. *note, I'm talking about the in-game mesh, not the fake "Only used it cut scenes" mesh. TLOU uses a ~15k poly mesh for cut scenes, whereas C3 uses a 15k mesh (psycho) the entire time.

Next we have textures. Baring the stupid "you can take a 1x1 texture and stretch it to 4K, it doesn't make it 4K" argument, we can again, with math, prove that C3's is better. Physco uses 2k face texture, a 2k body texture, and a 1k detail texture (source). I'm not 100% sure on Joel's in-game texture, but I can't believe its any higher than 1K. Again, resolution is not the only factor, so we can compare it to the real-world target, and we can see that C3's much higher resolution more accurately portrays the real-world target.

Then we have features. Crysis 3 uses Sub-surface scattering; TLOU does not. the list goes on.

Evidently, in every technical way possible, C3's characters ARE better. Hence, when giving out a TECHNICAL award, it should go to C3.

In my opinion one of the best looking games is Hotline: Miami, but in no way should that get ANY visual award.


*I use C3 as a reference simply because I have ~7 years of experience with Cryengine. Other great examples exist*

To which you responded and only included the part I'm highlighting. You make the claim that his analogy is incorrect as you claim graphics are purely subjective like music taste. The part in Italic is the par that you omitted and the part where he explains how he would objectively quantify the quality of graphics (taking personal taste out of the equation).

So I would argue that your analogy comparing music to graphics is incorrect. I would instead claim that in that analogy music would equal art and the recording medium/play back device like CD/LP along with an amp/speakers would stand in for the graphics.

What I mean by this is that music/art is subjective but the playback quality or "graphics" can be objectively measured. Listening to a piece of music form an old radio is very different in quality compared to listening to the same piece form an expensive Hi-Fi setup.
Edited by Bit_reaper - 3/28/14 at 2:50pm
    
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post #115 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

I think you did take him out of context and by doing so omitted the point he was actually making.

His post was
To which you responded and only included the part I'm highlighting. You make the claim that his analogy is incorrect as you claim graphics are purely subjective like music taste. The part in Italic is the par that you omitted and the part where he explains how he would objectively quantify the quality of graphics (taking personal taste out of the equation).

So I would argue that your analogy comparing music to graphics is incorrect. I would instead claim that in that analogy music would equal art and the recording medium/play back device like CD/LP along with an amp/speakers would stand in for the graphics.

What I mean by this is that music/art is subjective but the playback quality or "graphics" can be objectively measured. Listening to a piece of music form an old radio is very different in quality compared to listening to the same piece form an expensive Hi-Fi setup.

I'm trying to be nice here. I did not take him out of context. I quoted what was relevant to my purpose/point. That is all there is to it. Taking someone out of context would be for me to attack the rest of his opinion of his post and not include all of the details. I'm merely pointing out a fallacy of the analogy he made. Again; that is all.

With the second part you're addressing, you're grabbing at strands. I specifically used the example of a 'song/track' and how one's opinion of how much they like it, or don't like it is relevant. Not the equipment behind reproducing said song/track, or that which reproduces it to the end-user. That is a potential factor in why someone may or may not like a track, but if you're going to argue that it plays a big role (if any greater than a quite forgiving 5%) then you've got a serious problem.

You seem to be injecting personal feelings into an argument to help yourself look better. I'm sorry you're upset of what I've pointed out, but you should probably tend to the debate that you're not currently losing.
 
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post #116 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

I have no problem with giving credit where credit is due but to use your car analogy, giving The last of us the "best graphics" award is like giving the Lotus Elise the "fastest car on the planet" award. Its simply not true. That's not saying the Elise is not fast or a good car but its not the fastest and saying it is, is just hyperbole.

Please find me the magazine/review outlet that rated TLoU as the greatest graphics in a video game of all time...

So if Lotus Elise was rated best sports car of the year or even best handling car of the decade...you'd still have a problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by doomlord52 View Post

How is it apple's to oranges. It's one game vs. another game. Both do the same thing: render things in real time. So, when you go around giving out "Best Visuals" or "Best Technology" awards, you MUST compare all things equally - regardless of the hardware they run on. THIS is my major complaint. Games like TLOU, Killzone, etc. look good.... for a console game. However, these awards don't take into account platform - you never see "best Xbox graphics" or "best PC graphics" - it's just "best graphics". Hence, You HAVE to compare games like Metro and Crysis 3, on PC, at absolutely the highest settings against the likes of TLOU; and it's obvious which one wins.

As for the price, that's also not true. When TLOU came out, the PS4 was not available yet, and the PS3 was still around $300. And even then, no one is going to go out and buy a PS3 now (well, maybe a few would). Now, let's look at a PC. You don't need a $2000 PC for Crysis 3 to look better than TLOU. Let's get a $200 R9 270. It'll run C3 at 1080p, 30fps at the highest settings. Already, we're FAR better. Then, you can either shove that into an existing PC, or pick up the rest. Here's a ton of cheap builds. Let's take the "Next-Gen crusher", and swap the 7850 for the R9 270. You're now sitting on a ~$500 tower that has 1TB of storage to the PS3's 120gb. It's also far more powerful. So, $500 vs. about $300, and it has the added bonus of being a PC. Not really "Apples to Oranges", is it?

1st off, thanks for renaming my screenname. I quite like the Booty Warrior title actually.

2nd...you need to revisit what 'apples to oranges' means

A fair comparison, or Apples to Apples test as hard OP reviews would call it, is a 7 year old computer or a computer costing $299 running the exact same sequence and secenes of the same title 720p@30fps. You know, standardizing the test...minimalizing the differences between the two subjects. Science 101.

just because something has 4 wheels and a motor doesn't mean you can make a head to head test against them. but hey but my minivan gets me to point A and B just like my wagon does and can haul things too!!!

so once again, if you wanna compare the technicalities of a PS3 exclusive vs a PC centric game, u doin it wong mang
Edited by twitchyzero - 3/28/14 at 10:04pm
     
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post #117 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by twitchyzero View Post

Please find me the magazine/review outlet that rated TLoU as the greatest graphics in a video game of all time...
Ok:
Outstanding Achievement in Visual Engineering
DICE Awards (Feb 2014)

Best Overall Graphics - Technology
IGN Best of 2013
Quote:
So if Lotus Elise was rated best sports car of the year or even best handling car of the decade...you'd still have a problem?
No, because that is a summation of its parts. Best handling is NOT top speed. You could also objectively test best handing quite easily (turning radius at speed, etc.). Best Sports Car would be pushing it. Maybe if they took into account the price, availability, handling, acceleration, top speed, 0-100-0, etc. visual appeal, MAYBE it would be justified. I doubt it, simply because there are better cars, but at least it could be explained. However, if the Elise were to get an award like "fastest car of the year", I would complain; simply because its a lie. Just like calling TLOU graphics the best of the year, or the largest technological accomplishment.

Quote:
1st off, thanks for renaming my screenname. I quite like the Booty Warrior title actually.
Wasn't me, also there is a User by that screen name in this thread.
Quote:
2nd...you need to revisit what 'apples to oranges' means
I would say the same thing to the reviewers. When you give out lump-sum awards like "best graphics", you're pooling together EVERY game released that year; PC, Xbox, PS, Handheld, etc. They must then all be judged equally, and the award given to the best candidate. Unfortunately, the reviewers DON'T do this. They take each game by its own standard; TLOU does look good - for a console game. There's probably other games that look great for a mobile platform. Lastly, there are games that look great for a PC title. The problem is, the games that look great for a PC title also look dramatically better than everything else. The reviewers are taking an apples to oranges problem and are removing the differences, and then passing them off as the same thing. If, instead, the above awards were "Best Visual engineering on a console title" and "Best overall graphics for a console title", I would be 100% fine with it. Unfortunately, there is NO qualifier. It's simply "best", implying that they are superior to PC titles like C3, Metro:LL - which means I WILL compare TLOU to those two, and they will win.
Quote:
A fair comparison, or Apples to Apples test as hard OP reviews would call it, is a 7 year old computer or a computer costing $299 running the exact same sequence and secenes of the same title 720p@30fps. You know, standardizing the test...minimalizing the differences between the two subjects. Science 101.
Well that's not fair. The PC I could have bought back in 2005 is far worse than the one I could get now. It's not my fault consoles don't evolve over time; so why should be benchmark be set with outdated hardware? A $2000+ PC from 2005/2006 is far out performed by even a lowly $500 PC from today. Besides, a PC does FAR more than a console, so why should the price be set to the worse of the two? You can't email, use Excel, Word, Cinema 4D, Photoshop, Dreamweaver, After Effects, Vegas.... etc. on a console, but I could do that easily on a $500 PC.
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just because something has 4 wheels and a motor doesn't mean you can make a head to head test against them. but hey but my minivan gets me to point A and B just like my wagon does and can haul things too!!!
You're right - that's why we have qualifiers. A car magazine will award a minivan "best minivan of the year", or a wagon "best wagon of the year" and so on. A car magazine will probably never award a minivan "best car of the year"; they'll instead give it to a BMW, Mercedes, etc. In fact, to stop this type of thing from happening, Top Gear made the separate category of "super car of the year"; you'll find things like the 599GTB, Agera, Aventador, 458 Italia, etc. in there. In CAR of the year, you'll find things like a 350z, Fiesta ST, GT86, etc. There's an obvious distinction between the two. ALL im asking for is that with TLOU; give it "best console graphics of 2013".
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so once again, if you wanna compare the technicalities of a PS3 exclusive vs a PC centric game, u doin it wong mang
When they lump super cars and minivans (PC and console) together, I have to directly compare them. It's not my fault. It's the reviewers that are doing it wrong.
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post #118 of 131
Lol this thread... I'm excited for tlou on ps4.
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post #119 of 131
This thread will be the last of them...
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post #120 of 131
This is confirmed now.

Source: http://blog.us.playstation.com/2014/04/09/the-last-of-us-remastered-coming-to-ps4-summer-2014/
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