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[IGN] Last of Us is coming to Playstation 4 - Page 10

post #91 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Zuko View Post

Its not hard to take a high res picture. Its hard to create art. Art is an aspect of graphics. Super Metroid is awesome looking. That's 16 bit. Beyond that you have to understand the award given. If its technical or a sum greater than its parts. But I'll never agree that art does not matter when looking at something. Best graphics should be a combination of sheer picture quality, art, animation, and style. Unless you just want soul less high res me too graphics in every game. But I'm speaking as an artist myself. I think you are all looking at it too differently to agree on anything.

Sure but by saying that TLoU deserves the tiles of "best graphics" you are essentially claiming that The last of us has so much better art then say BioShock Infinite or Tomb Raider that it negates the technical difference. That's just something I can't agree with.

This does not look better




then this



or this





Its not like the art in thous games is bad. Quite the contrary. They are excellent in both art and technical execution. Now if you wan't to make the claim that TLoU has the best acting then that would perhaps hold merit.
    
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post #92 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Zuko View Post

Its not hard to take a high res picture. Its hard to create art. Art is an aspect of graphics. Super Metroid is awesome looking. That's 16 bit. Beyond that you have to understand the award given. If its technical or a sum greater than its parts. But I'll never agree that art does not matter when looking at something. Best graphics should be a combination of sheer picture quality, art, animation, and style. Unless you just want soul less high res me too graphics in every game. But I'm speaking as an artist myself. I think you are all looking at it too differently to agree on anything.

Agreed, he cant get around the basic understanding that a game doesnt have to be 1080P or higher with tons of AA and AF in order to be good looking. We have all admitted that the obvious elements of AA and AF along with some lower res textures are certainly present in Last of Us but at the same time are able to understand and grasp the bigger picture of things concerning other aspects which make the graphics look awesome in spite of its short comings compared to what we see on the PC which can do high res along with lots of AA and AF.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

Sure but by saying that TLoU deserves the tiles of "best graphics" you are essentially claiming that The last of us has so much better art then say BioShock Infinite or Tomb Raider that it negates the technical difference. That's just something I can't agree with.

This does not look better




then this



or this





Its not like the art in thous games is bad. Quite the contrary. They are excellent in both art and technical execution. Now if you wan't to make the claim that TLoU has the best acting then that would perhaps hold merit.

Its called an opinion, we all have one and in my opinion the first 2 screens look better than the ones below it. wink.gif
post #93 of 131
Also the fact that you are still posting still shots as a comparison tells me you are not even trying to comprehend what we have been telling you all along. You must play the game.... It must be seen in motion to truly appreciate it.

Yes Tombraider and Bioshock look awesome maxed out on my gaming rig, no one is saying that they dont look good.
post #94 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niberius View Post

Sure the potential is there but how many devs actually take the time to exploit it? Yeah...... If they pored as much love into pc gaming as they did with the limitations of the PS3 our minds would be blown.

Yeah but its not like every PS3 game looks like The last of us or B2S. I'm just saying that when a developers choices to go for the best possible graphics then the graphics on PC are better. That much should be obvious to anyone and that's why I call BS on an PS3 game getting a "best graphics of the year award" unless said award specifically excludes PC titles.

All thou PC gamers haven't gotten a lot of love for the past few years we sill get some pretty incredible looking games despite them being held back by consoles. When they do go for an all out PC game we get stuff like Project CAR's.
    
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post #95 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

Yeah but its not like every PS3 game looks like The last of us or B2S..

I never said that they did, in fact there are quiet a few ugly PS3 games.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

I'm just saying that when a developers choices to go for the best possible graphics then the graphics on PC are better.

Again who are you arguing with here? certainly not I because I never denied that. What I asked you was how many times you have ever seen a PC dev really and I mean REALLY exploit the power of a PC game? Not very often actually if ever. Most games are polished up Console ports at best which while being better looking than the console counter part still could be greatly improved upon if they were to really focus on using the power of what the PC is capable of.
post #96 of 131
I'd rather ND stay exclusive to Sony. As much as they would probably do good with a PC game, the way they are able to cater to very specific systems helps them make the games that they do. This goes for any successful developer who has ever had a successful series on a console.
 
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post #97 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niberius View Post

Also the fact that you are still posting still shots as a comparison tells me you are not even trying to comprehend what we have been telling you all along. You must play the game.... It must be seen in motion to truly appreciate it.

Yes Tombraider and Bioshock look awesome maxed out on my gaming rig, no one is saying that they dont look good.

I know what TLoU looks like in motion. Its the same for most games really. The good and the bad is much more noticeable when its running in front your eyes. Its not like you can appreciate smooth 60 FPS while looking at a still either or how the shadows form the trees dance on the characters etc. etc. On the flip side jaggy edges, low res textures, frame rate issues ect are much more or only noticeable when playing the game (any game both console and PC).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niberius View Post

Agreed, he cant get around the basic understanding that a game doesnt have to be 1080P or higher with tons of AA and AF in order to be good looking. We have all admitted that the obvious elements of AA and AF along with some lower res textures are certainly present in Last of Us but at the same time are able to understand and grasp the bigger picture of things concerning other aspects which make the graphics look awesome in spite of its short comings compared to what we see on the PC which can do high res along with lots of AA and AF.
Its called an opinion, we all have one and in my opinion the first 2 screens look better than the ones below it. wink.gif

And everyone is entitles to it. My opinions is that awarding PS3 game with an best graphics award is BS and I can back that opinion with rational reasons.
Edited by Bit_reaper - 3/28/14 at 1:00pm
    
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post #98 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booty Warrior View Post

lol @ doomlord

anytime there's a debate on visual fidelity he goes out of his way to compare apple and oranges.

let's compare a game on a $200 console to a computer with $2000 worth of graphics cards!!

best part of it all, he hasn't even played the game, and judges them via screenshots or Youtube video which we know has compressions.

Naughty Dog is praised for squeezing every last juice out of the 7 year old PS3...so from a technical standpoint give credit where it's due. But if you ask me Quantic Dream created the best graphics on last gen consoles because they used a PS4 game engine.

So yeah beside from Last of Us GOTY ed on PS4 i think we'll see the same thing with Beyond 2 Souls.

Every game with good graphics will have moments where screenshots captures them in a very bad light. But since you like doing these biased comparsions and cherry pick esp with Crysis 3 face models I'll play:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Crysis 3 (PC's best...I believe it's still the only game built groundup with DX11....most likely the best until Witcher 3 in 2015)



Beyond 2 Souls (PS3's best)



Play Beyond on a now 8 year old console and tell me you aren't impressed (no youtube doesn't count)...then try and replicate Crysis 3 or anything close to that at 720p on a 8 year old computer.

How is it apple's to oranges. It's one game vs. another game. Both do the same thing: render things in real time. So, when you go around giving out "Best Visuals" or "Best Technology" awards, you MUST compare all things equally - regardless of the hardware they run on. THIS is my major complaint. Games like TLOU, Killzone, etc. look good.... for a console game. However, these awards don't take into account platform - you never see "best Xbox graphics" or "best PC graphics" - it's just "best graphics". Hence, You HAVE to compare games like Metro and Crysis 3, on PC, at absolutely the highest settings against the likes of TLOU; and it's obvious which one wins.

As for the price, that's also not true. When TLOU came out, the PS4 was not available yet, and the PS3 was still around $300. And even then, no one is going to go out and buy a PS3 now (well, maybe a few would). Now, let's look at a PC. You don't need a $2000 PC for Crysis 3 to look better than TLOU. Let's get a $200 R9 270. It'll run C3 at 1080p, 30fps at the highest settings. Already, we're FAR better. Then, you can either shove that into an existing PC, or pick up the rest. Here's a ton of cheap builds. Let's take the "Next-Gen crusher", and swap the 7850 for the R9 270. You're now sitting on a ~$500 tower that has 1TB of storage to the PS3's 120gb. It's also far more powerful. So, $500 vs. about $300, and it has the added bonus of being a PC. Not really "Apples to Oranges", is it?

As for B2S, Bit_reaper nailed it: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

Yeah B2S runs real time but thous where 1080p promotional images and sure as hell weren't running real time on an PS3. (The actual game runs something like 1000x450 letherbox)

Promotional wall papers Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


Actual in-game screen shot Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)





The actual game textures and shading is dialed back quite a bit along with rendering resolution and AA. It still looks nice but nowhere near the same level as the promo stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Junkboy View Post

Basically I'm saying you're absolutely right and graphically it should be a no contest, but that's not the way awards actually work. Though better textures and some real AA and this game should look much much better!

Then its an award for compromise, and people really need to stop 'hyping' TLOU graphics. No one is excited that a new Golf MK7 has a top speed of 179km/h. Everyone is excited that the Koenigsegg One:1 has a top speed of 440km/h - despite one being $30k, and the other being somewhere around $2.2m. No one is going to give an MK7 the "top speed" award - it doesn't make sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

I have no problem with giving credit where credit is due but to use your car analogy, giving The last of us the "best graphics" award is like giving the Lotus Elise the "fastest car on the planet" award. Its simply not true. That's not saying the Elise is not fast or a good car but its not the fastest and saying it is, is just hyperbole.

You might find what devs are doing on consoles more impressive. I do not. I have more admiration for the people that work on cutting edge stuff as they are the ones that are really pushing the envelope, putting in the research and time into making something never before seen appear on our screens and often it is that same stuff that then filters down to consoles after its been proven it can be done on PC's.

While it most certainly takes a lot of skill to make something like TLoU or B2S but at the same time the hardware limitations mean that there is a lot of stuff that thous devs will never have to worry about or even consider as its so far outside the power target.

On PC devs pretty much have more power on hand every time they make a game so for them its like going in for next gen with every game. More power raises the question of how to best apply that power and then actually doing it. Writing that new piece of code that pushes that new hardware and not only do that but at the same time make it scalable enough that it can be run on moderate hardware to and not only SLI Titans.

K, I'll just let bit_reaper talk. He already living in my head.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Niberius View Post

Its called an opinion, we all have one and in my opinion the first 2 screens look better than the ones below it. wink.gif

I think this sums up the problem. They're giving out technical awards, and people are praising it for technical reasons, when really, the only justification is in a subjective category - artistic style. We can literally use math to prove that, for example, Crysis 3's faces look better than TLOU. How? Well, take a look at the facial mesh. Both were based off of real people - hence, whichever is closest to the real-world target is technically better. In this case, Psycho's tesselated head IS more accurate in terms of mesh. Joel's is lower poly, and NOT tesselated. Hence, it has sharper edges, and is mathematically a less accurate interpretation of the real thing. *note, I'm talking about the in-game mesh, not the fake "Only used it cut scenes" mesh. TLOU uses a ~15k poly mesh for cut scenes, whereas C3 uses a 15k mesh (psycho) the entire time.

Next we have textures. Baring the stupid "you can take a 1x1 texture and stretch it to 4K, it doesn't make it 4K" argument, we can again, with math, prove that C3's is better. Physco uses 2k face texture, a 2k body texture, and a 1k detail texture (source). I'm not 100% sure on Joel's in-game texture, but I can't believe its any higher than 1K. Again, resolution is not the only factor, so we can compare it to the real-world target, and we can see that C3's much higher resolution more accurately portrays the real-world target.

Then we have features. Crysis 3 uses Sub-surface scattering; TLOU does not. the list goes on.

Evidently, in every technical way possible, C3's characters ARE better. Hence, when giving out a TECHNICAL award, it should go to C3.

In my opinion one of the best looking games is Hotline: Miami, but in no way should that get ANY visual award.

*I use C3 as a reference simply because I have ~7 years of experience with Cryengine. Other great examples exist*
Edited by doomlord52 - 3/28/14 at 1:03pm
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post #99 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomlord52 View Post

Then its an award for compromise, and people really need to stop 'hyping' TLOU graphics. No one is excited that a new Golf MK7 has a top speed of 179km/h. Everyone is excited that the Koenigsegg One:1 has a top speed of 440km/h - despite one being $30k, and the other being somewhere around $2.2m. No one is going to give an MK7 the "top speed" award - it doesn't make sense.

Except that's not a proper analogy. One can actually be measured in a scientific manner, while one is perceptive, and entirely up to the end user (i..e. your opinion). It just means you have a strong opinion/bias against it. It's the same reason you don't think a certain song should be a number one hit (or that it should).
 
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post #100 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bit_reaper View Post

I know what TLoU looks like in motion..
Oh really? so aside from a youtube video you have actually sat down with controller in hand and put a few hours into it? if not then you really have not experienced the game in motion. I on the other hand have played through it 3 times.
Quote:
The good and the bad is much more noticeable when its running in front your eyes.

Yes and no, the still shots make it look worse in a lot of aspects because it completely dulls the look of the game and takes the life out of it. On the other hand the jaggies in Last of US are not that bad, it does use FXAA "which i know isnt the best implementation of AA" but at the same time some transparency textures have AA applied to it which helps reduce the shimmering. Like I said before unless you are sitting 2 feet away from the screen this is not an issue.


Quote:
And everyone is entitles to it.

As far as my comment about opinions are concerned that was exactly my argument, thanks for reinstating yet again what I have already said.
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Rumors and Unconfirmed Articles › [IGN] Last of Us is coming to Playstation 4