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ARMA 3: FX-8320 OR Phenom II X6 - Page 2

post #11 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PontiacGTX View Post

If we check this Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
http://static.techspot.com/articles-info/712/bench/CPU_02.png

The cpu fx 8350/20 scales. 4fps from 4ghz to 4.5ghz

And checking the same but from the multiplayer
http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Action-ARMA_III-test-a3_proz.jpg

There is a 3fps difference



Verifying these charts
http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Action-ARMA_III-test-a3_2560_amd.jpg
http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Action-ARMA_III-test-a3_2560_intel.jpg

We see that the core usage is optimal with 4,and fully with with 2 cores after 4 cores the load is shared between all

I woukd say that a phenom II x6 to catch a 3.8ghz 8cores would need 4/4.1ghz in arma III

As you can see here the difderence between a fx 8150/phenom II x6 to a fx 8350 is 3-5%
http://www.extremetech.com/computing/135388-amd-cpu-bonanza-trinity-desktop-prices-intels-counter-and-the-piledriver-fx-8350s-performance
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/698?vs=203
+rep,

Hmm that's really interesting. From the second link a Thuban 1100T is 2 fps slower than a stock FX-8350 for it's minimum FPS. However it's average is 8 FPS which is quite a bit.

CPU utilisation scales quite nicely. The reason for my current doubting and hesitation is that my Athlon 760K @4.6Ghz gets maxed out by ARMA in CPU heavy situations. Would the lack of L3 to be blamed? Looks like a hex core may be a sweet spot.

Now here's my dilemma. A used i5-2500K is the same price as a used FX-8320 (from where I can get it). However the cost of getting a nice board (personally) from the I5-2500k would bring the cost up.

It's whether I take the chance of overclocking a Thuban. The FX-6300 is slightly cheaper however.


A 960T is the same price as a 1035T. it's whether I take the risk of the 960T and unlock it (unlocked multiplier) or take the chance of overclocking the bus for the 1035T. Both are risky but then both are considerably cheaper. It seems Vishera parts need to be clocked high to get similar minimum FPS as the Thuban parts.


Hmm decisions. I have always like Thuban and due to it's stronger single threaded performance may mean when there's more of a demand on the CPU part it may run better? Not sure.
post #12 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo01 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by PontiacGTX View Post

If we check this Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
http://static.techspot.com/articles-info/712/bench/CPU_02.png

The cpu fx 8350/20 scales. 4fps from 4ghz to 4.5ghz

And checking the same but from the multiplayer
http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Action-ARMA_III-test-a3_proz.jpg

There is a 3fps difference



Verifying these charts
http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Action-ARMA_III-test-a3_2560_amd.jpg
http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Action-ARMA_III-test-a3_2560_intel.jpg

We see that the core usage is optimal with 4,and fully with with 2 cores after 4 cores the load is shared between all

I woukd say that a phenom II x6 to catch a 3.8ghz 8cores would need 4/4.1ghz in arma III

As you can see here the difderence between a fx 8150/phenom II x6 to a fx 8350 is 3-5%
http://www.extremetech.com/computing/135388-amd-cpu-bonanza-trinity-desktop-prices-intels-counter-and-the-piledriver-fx-8350s-performance
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/698?vs=203
+rep,

Hmm that's really interesting. From the second link a Thuban 1100T is 2 fps slower than a stock FX-8350 for it's minimum FPS. However it's average is 8 FPS which is quite a bit.

CPU utilisation scales quite nicely. The reason for my current doubting and hesitation is that my Athlon 760K @4.6Ghz gets maxed out by ARMA in CPU heavy situations. Would the lack of L3 to be blamed? Looks like a hex core may be a sweet spot.

Now here's my dilemma. A used i5-2500K is the same price as a used FX-8320 (from where I can get it). However the cost of getting a nice board (personally) from the I5-2500k would bring the cost up.

It's whether I take the chance of overclocking a Thuban. The FX-6300 is slightly cheaper however.


A 960T is the same price as a 1035T. it's whether I take the risk of the 960T and unlock it (unlocked multiplier) or take the chance of overclocking the bus for the 1035T. Both are risky but then both are considerably cheaper. It seems Vishera parts need to be clocked high to get similar minimum FPS as the Thuban parts.


Hmm decisions. I have always like Thuban and due to it's stronger single threaded performance may mean when there's more of a demand on the CPU part it may run better? Not sure.
Personally I would never buy a smaller processor with the hope of unlocking cores. It's just to risky IMO. As for a Thuban hexa if you factor overclockability into account the FX will win. Although only a little bit ahead, that FX can go to 4.6 and beyond when you decide to step on the gas.

I am an AMD fan. However if you can get a used I5-2500K and a decent motherboard I would say that is probably going to be your best bet. Cause Sandy's are soldered to the IHS they cool better than all newer Intel's. Most Sandy's as I am sure you know can clock to 5Ghz. Just like most Piledriver. Although I don't ACTUALLY know what the IPC difference is between the two.

FX is soldered too BTW.
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post #13 of 27
Games` programmers tend to put more emphasis on newer architecture so at the end of the day the more cores or higher ipc will take advantage over 4 cores or dual cores(with lower frecuency,cache,imc,worse archtechture)

Those Athlon 760k should be as good as CORE 2 QUADs yorkfield(up to the q9300) and Phenom II x4 8xx and 925,maybe its weak architecture (module based),low cache l2,
It`s weakness all comes from am3+ counterpart,if they were as good as i7 in games their apus would be at least as i3 or better

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6396/the-vishera-review-amd-fx8350-fx8320-fx6300-and-fx4300-tested


This may interest you
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fx-8350-core-i7-3770k-gaming-bottleneck,3407.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/windows-7-hotfix-bulldozer-performance,3119-4.html

But the cpu performance will vary from game to game,games that support multithreads like crysis 3 or Battlefield 4 ,the fx 8320 is as good as an i7 but in games that are very cpu demanding(speed wise) like starcraft II or Shotgun has way better performance with intel.

But fps games generally or gpu demanding games at 1080p gives less load than a rts/3rd person view game

If you need specific application performance I would need to know then,also which other games

But as I said each game engine has more performance with newer architectures like vishera being better than thuban in Arma III

Btw this mobo fits i5 2500k
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B007KTY4A6/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1396030499&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX110_SY165
Edited by PontiacGTX - 3/28/14 at 11:17am
post #14 of 27
Fro PontiacGTX's post:



This tells me that going from a 760K to FX will do absolutely nothing for performance. Overclock higher or switch to intel. Those are your only options that will improve performance in this game.

L3 cache on FX doesn't do anything tangible in single-user workloads. It was simulated and optimized for server workloads with very high que depths. For all intents and purposes the L2 cache on FX takes the place of the L3 from phenom II.
     
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post #15 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PontiacGTX View Post

Games` programmers tend to put more emphasis on newer architecture so at the end of the day the more cores or higher ipc will take advantage over 4 cores or dual cores(with lower frecuency,cache,imc,worse archtechture) Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Those Athlon 760k should be as good as CORE 2 QUADs yorkfield(up to the q9300) and Phenom II x4 8xx and 925,maybe its weak architecture (module based),low cache l2,
It`s weakness all comes from am3+ counterpart,if they were as good as i7 in games their apus would be at least as i3 or better

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6396/the-vishera-review-amd-fx8350-fx8320-fx6300-and-fx4300-tested


This may interest you
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fx-8350-core-i7-3770k-gaming-bottleneck,3407.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/windows-7-hotfix-bulldozer-performance,3119-4.html

But the cpu performance will vary from game to game,games that support multithreads like crysis 3 or Battlefield 4 ,the fx 8320 is as good as an i7 but in games that are very cpu demanding(speed wise) like starcraft II or Shotgun has way better performance with intel.

But fps games generally or gpu demanding games at 1080p gives less load than a rts/3rd person view game

If you need specific application performance I would need to know then,also which other games

But as I said each game engine has more performance with newer architectures like vishera being better than thuban in Arma III

Btw this mobo fits i5 2500k
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B007KTY4A6/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1396030499&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX110_SY165

Thanks for the link very interesting thumb.gif so although a Thuban may be decent it's probably going to start struggling with newer titles in the near future.

Also thanks for the link to the motherboard, hmm that's pretty good price actually. Well I did recently sell my I7 to get money back as I didn't like that I spent so much on it.

So money wise:
My previous I7 and MSI: £235/$391
My current Athlon and Gigabyte: £113/$188
Phenom II + Gigabyte AM3+: £125/$208
I5-2500K + Asrock: £178/$296

Now really I should scrap the FX idea as it'll cost the same as the I5 setup.

So it's whether saving a wad of cash on the Phenom / Performance or not.


The original reason for downgrading was my computer activity, I on average browse, word process, do the occasional music/video conversions and programming.

Reason I hesitate on spending the money on a more expensive Intel build is due to not actually playing many games. I honestly think the most demanding games I run is the Assassins Creed series, Battlefield and ARMA. I may play some other titles like Tomb Raider or Crysis and maybe Company of Heroes but other than that I run older games tongue.gif other than those I may pick up some newer titles if I see any (like interested in Titan Fall but will see if I'll give it a shot)


It's whether a Phenom will be enough or actually better than my current Athlon x4.

Thanks for the input thumb.gif I may be a cheap skate yes tongue.gif I mainly bargain hunt and especially graphics card wise I tend to try and minimise costs.

EDIT: I seem to have hit my OC limit too frown.gif so fundamentally unless I switch to Intel I may be hitting the limit an AMD based system can achieve?
Edited by mikeo01 - 3/28/14 at 12:12pm
post #16 of 27
Check to see if YOUR cpu utilization mirrors what those benchmarks are pointing to. If you have a single core pegged at 100% utilization and the other 3 sortof along for the ride, then you're basically at the end of the paved road for what AMD can do for you. You can put it in 4-low and push for 5ghz, put chains on and try for further but it's not going to make much difference. (edit: well.. maybe)

I am surprised to hear that you can't OC further on that richland with that enormous CPU cooler on that nice motherboard though. Our Richland can boot and even do *some* work at 5ghz on the little $20 CNPS5X (can't run there all the time as it can overheat at those settings under some workloads so I keep it in the ~4.7ghz range usually).

Honestly has me wondering if you've actually exhausted your overclocking headroom or just run into some other sort of misunderstanding about how to get it to go further. Ours will do 5ghz at 1.45V. If you want help pushing for higher I'm pretty familiar with overclocking on the gigabyte UEFI MIT on both AM3 and FM2.

[edit] just noticed you said BF. That's a very CPU heavy game that DOES scale to parallel hardware somewhat well. That game will improve with an FX -83XX.
Edited by mdocod - 3/28/14 at 12:44pm
     
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post #17 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo01 View Post

Thanks for the link very interesting thumb.gif so although a Thuban may be decent it's probably going to start struggling with newer titles in the near future.

Also thanks for the link to the motherboard, hmm that's pretty good price actually. Well I did recently sell my I7 to get money back as I didn't like that I spent so much on it.

So money wise:
My previous I7 and MSI: £235/$391
My current Athlon and Gigabyte: £113/$188
Phenom II + Gigabyte AM3+: £125/$208
I5-2500K + Asrock: £178/$296

Now really I should scrap the FX idea as it'll cost the same as the I5 setup.

So it's whether saving a wad of cash on the Phenom / Performance or not.


The original reason for downgrading was my computer activity, I on average browse, word process, do the occasional music/video conversions and programming.

Reason I hesitate on spending the money on a more expensive Intel build is due to not actually playing many games. I honestly think the most demanding games I run is the Assassins Creed series, Battlefield and ARMA. I may play some other titles like Tomb Raider or Crysis and maybe Company of Heroes but other than that I run older games tongue.gif other than those I may pick up some newer titles if I see any (like interested in Titan Fall but will see if I'll give it a shot)


It's whether a Phenom will be enough or actually better than my current Athlon x4.

Thanks for the input thumb.gif I may be a cheap skate yes tongue.gif I mainly bargain hunt and especially graphics card wise I tend to try and minimise costs.

EDIT: I seem to have hit my OC limit too frown.gif so fundamentally unless I switch to Intel I may be hitting the limit an AMD based system can achieve?
with assassin creed IV the intel processor is a bit better http://www.hardwarepal.com/assassins-creed-4-black-flag-benchmark-cpu-gpu/8/
And the cpu core`s usage wont pass to more than 4 cores
http://community.pcgamingwiki.com/page/articles.html/_/features/port-reports/pc-report-assassin%E2%80%99s-creed-iv-black-flag-r115

Battlefield 3
At a resolution higher(or equal) than 1680x1050
The cpu performance with a phenom II x6 is the same as an i5 or a fx 8350
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fx-8350-vishera-review,3328-13.html
The story changes when it comes to crossfire or sli setup where you need a better cpu
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fx-8350-core-i7-3770k-gaming-bottleneck,3407-5.html


But yes, a Phenom II x6 would be a much better improvement over an athlon but in some games the fx 8350 is a better bet

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?285161-More-Crysis-3-CPU-benchmarks&p=5173060&viewfull=1#post5173060
http://gamegpu.ru/action-/-fps-/-tps/crysis-3-test-gpu.html

http://www.techspot.com/review/734-battlefield-4-benchmarks/page6.html
http://gamegpu.ru/action-/-fps-/-tps/battlefield-4-test-gpu.html
http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Action-Battlefield_4-test-bf4_proz_2.jpg
Here you can see that even the i5 falls to fx 8150 levels..and there is where the new architechture and more threads programming code is


The choice should be more like a used i7 or a fx 8320
post #18 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdocod View Post

Check to see if YOUR cpu utilization mirrors what those benchmarks are pointing to Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
. If you have a single core pegged at 100% utilization and the other 3 sortof along for the ride, then you're basically at the end of the paved road for what AMD can do for you. You can put it in 4-low and push for 5ghz, put chains on and try for further but it's not going to make much difference. (edit: well.. maybe)

I am surprised to hear that you can't OC further on that richland with that enormous CPU cooler on that nice motherboard though. Our Richland can boot and even do *some* work at 5ghz on the little $20 CNPS5X (can't run there all the time as it can overheat at those settings under some workloads so I keep it in the ~4.7ghz range usually).

Honestly has me wondering if you've actually exhausted your overclocking headroom or just run into some other sort of misunderstanding about how to get it to go further. Ours will do 5ghz at 1.45V. If you want help pushing for higher I'm pretty familiar with overclocking on the gigabyte UEFI MIT on both AM3 and FM2.

[edit] just noticed you said BF. That's a very CPU heavy game that DOES scale to parallel hardware somewhat well. That game will improve with an FX -83XX.

Right just had a check on a dense city with a lot of AI where my FPS was low and my CPU usage was hovering around 60-70% per core.

About overclocking not sure, it gets pretty toasty. I have reapplied thermal paste and made sure everything is OK but it can get quite hot. I seem to be stuck at 4.6Ghz. I have attempted higher, tried 4.8Ghz @ 1.488v but that ends up freezing (and keeping close to the 60c mark on occasions). I have 5x Thermalright TY-143 fans running so airflow isn't an issue.

Northbridge is at 2200Mhz, I have found anything higher yields very little or no benefits. I may just have a bad chip. It's vcore is 1.428v at stock (although for some odd reason it doesn't turbo). If I enable turbo in the BIOS (two options which is odd) my chip automatically gets fed 1.5v. So I proceeded to just overclocking it.

I am familiar with overclocking a FX and Phenom so not sure how different it may be. But I could be misunderstanding it yeah tongue.gif I know it works similar to Intel's chip in regards to the HTT, not getting that higher.

Anyhow problem I have is I am overly comparing all this to my previous Phenom 1045T. That thing at 4.0Ghz was nothing short of amazing, that flew along in Battlefield and also ARMA which is why I am hesitate of going FX tongue.gif to be fair I had my experience with the 6100.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PontiacGTX View Post

with assassin creed IV the intel processor is a bit better http://www.hardwarepal.com/assassins-creed-4-black-flag-benchmark-cpu-gpu/8/
And the cpu core`s usage wont pass to more than 4 cores
http://community.pcgamingwiki.com/page/articles.html/_/features/port-reports/pc-report-assassin%E2%80%99s-creed-iv-black-flag-r115

Battlefield 3
At a resolution higher(or equal) than 1680x1050
The cpu performance with a phenom II x6 is the same as an i5 or a fx 8350
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fx-8350-vishera-review,3328-13.html
The story changes when it comes to crossfire or sli setup where you need a better cpu
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fx-8350-core-i7-3770k-gaming-bottleneck,3407-5.html


But yes, a Phenom II x6 would be a much better improvement over an athlon but in some games the fx 8350 is a better bet

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?285161-More-Crysis-3-CPU-benchmarks&p=5173060&viewfull=1#post5173060
http://gamegpu.ru/action-/-fps-/-tps/crysis-3-test-gpu.html

http://www.techspot.com/review/734-battlefield-4-benchmarks/page6.html
http://gamegpu.ru/action-/-fps-/-tps/battlefield-4-test-gpu.html
http://gamegpu.ru/images/remote/http--www.gamegpu.ru-images-stories-Test_GPU-Action-Battlefield_4-test-bf4_proz_2.jpg
Here you can see that even the i5 falls to fx 8150 levels..and there is where the new architechture and more threads programming code is


The choice should be more like a used i7 or a fx 8320

Thanks thumb.gif hmm quite hard decision as if I go the 8320 route I will be closer to that I5-2500K. unless I get real lucky and pick one up for cheaper.

So there is definitely going to be more titles that like the FX over an old Thuban. Also I suppose I could even leave it at stock? As in I'd have to actually clock my Thuban high from the very beginning to even get into the game (as I am looking at 1035T).

EDIT:
FX-8320s are getting cheaper on Amazon which is a definite plus.
post #19 of 27
A stock clocked thunban should suffice a hd 7870,maybe a crossfire will need a 4\3.8ghz clock but performance wise a fx 8320 can be better since it can reach 5ghz

Where the fx 8320`s sweet spot ia 4.5ghz for games
Edited by PontiacGTX - 3/28/14 at 1:19pm
post #20 of 27
Make sure that Turbo CPB, Core Performance Boost, and APM are all disabled. Set LLC to MEDIUM. Pull back NB to 1800mhz while tuning for higher cpu clocks. Set CPU-NB to a fixed setting that is ~0.025V higher than the CPU-NB VID while working out a stable overclock. Set RAM to 1866MT/s@1.6V while working on the CPU overclock.

Under MIT current status, make sure there are timings listed for both memory channels wink.gif

I usually start by setting the chip to 1.40V@4.0ghz with fixed voltage settings and all performance scaling functions disabled (CnQ/turbo/CPB/APM) so I can test the LLC setting for effectiveness without interference. (differential between idle and load voltage). MEDIUM seems to be the sweet spot for many gigabyte FM2/AM3+ boards as it provides the tightest regulation without surging ahead of the setting under a load like Extreme does. (a small drooping behavior is preferable under a load).

After establishing that the LLC setting selected works well, I usually under-volt at 4.0ghz a step at a time until it won't boot. It'll usually be pretty stable just ~0.0125-0.025V above where it won't boot. From *that* starting point, every +100mhz will require approximately 0.025V more to be stable... up to a point. The under-volted stability@4.0ghz will be very telling about how far the chip will be able to go.

Getting the right LLC setting is probably 90% of the battle, after that results are much better in my experience. I think this critical step gets missed in most overclocking. "medium" works well for myself any many other giga board owners I have talked to, but you may have a better result with "low" or "standard" or "auto" or "normal" or who knows wink.gif
Edited by mdocod - 3/28/14 at 2:02pm
     
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8350 990X EVO R2.0 Sparkle GTX460 768MB ballistix tactical 2 x 8GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Toshiiba THNSNH 256GB Enterprise RE3 1TB Asus BD combo drive Artic A30 
OSMonitorMonitorMonitor
Manjaro Linux Samsung 21.5" LCD E2009WFP E2009WFP 
PowerCase
Seasonic G 550W Modular Fractal Design Core 3500 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-6300, 4.7 GHZ@1.43V GA-970A-UD3P GTX 460 768MB Mixed DIMMs. 2x4GB + 2x8GB @ 1600-8-8-8 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Toshiba THNSNH 19nm 256GB 1TB Spinpoint F3 WD RE3 1TB WD RE3 1TB 
Optical DriveCoolingOSOS
yes CM Seidon 120V SolydK OpenSuse 13.1 
OSOSMonitorMonitor
Linux Mint 9-32 bit // Linux Mint 17-64 bit  Manjaro Xfce Samsung 21.5" HannsG 21.5" sideways! 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Sticky ATNG Rosewill Green 630W NZXT Gamma Basic Microsoft corded 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
A10-6800k 4.8GHZ @ 1.375V, 1.2GHZ iGPU Gigabyte GA-F2A85XN-WIFI HD8670D Ripjaws 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Seagate ST1000DM003 Asus BC-12B1ST/BLK/B/AS Zalman CNPS5X Linux Mint 15 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
LG IPS224V-PN Logitec K360 FSP 400W Aurum S 80+ gold Prodigy 
Mouse
logitec M235 
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8350 990X EVO R2.0 Sparkle GTX460 768MB ballistix tactical 2 x 8GB 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Toshiiba THNSNH 256GB Enterprise RE3 1TB Asus BD combo drive Artic A30 
OSMonitorMonitorMonitor
Manjaro Linux Samsung 21.5" LCD E2009WFP E2009WFP 
PowerCase
Seasonic G 550W Modular Fractal Design Core 3500 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-6300, 4.7 GHZ@1.43V GA-970A-UD3P GTX 460 768MB Mixed DIMMs. 2x4GB + 2x8GB @ 1600-8-8-8 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Toshiba THNSNH 19nm 256GB 1TB Spinpoint F3 WD RE3 1TB WD RE3 1TB 
Optical DriveCoolingOSOS
yes CM Seidon 120V SolydK OpenSuse 13.1 
OSOSMonitorMonitor
Linux Mint 9-32 bit // Linux Mint 17-64 bit  Manjaro Xfce Samsung 21.5" HannsG 21.5" sideways! 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Sticky ATNG Rosewill Green 630W NZXT Gamma Basic Microsoft corded 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
A10-6800k 4.8GHZ @ 1.375V, 1.2GHZ iGPU Gigabyte GA-F2A85XN-WIFI HD8670D Ripjaws 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Seagate ST1000DM003 Asus BC-12B1ST/BLK/B/AS Zalman CNPS5X Linux Mint 15 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
LG IPS224V-PN Logitec K360 FSP 400W Aurum S 80+ gold Prodigy 
Mouse
logitec M235 
  hide details  
Reply
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