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post #11 of 60
/shrug.

it's simple physics... you boil liquid, it becomes a gas. gas is lighter then liquid so gravity will drive the gas bubble to travel upwards. THAT is the pump...

as for "pumping loss"... what exactly are you "losing"? the energy that is DRIVING the "pump" is the heat generated by the CPU... so "LOSING heat" is actually the job description for a heatsink isn't it?

as for the "speed" of the pump, it is directly related to the amount of heat that is boiling the liquid. low heat = slower boil, high heat = fast boil. as long as the radiator is able to dissipate the heat, the gas will be returned to liquid state as quickly as it's cooled down and gravity will pull the liquid back to the waterblock to be reboiled so there wouldn't be much of a pressure problem. you MAY run into a pressure problem if your radiator is too small or your fan is broken and not dissipating the heat fast enough and the additional gas would increase the pressure to ultimate failure pressure, but i'm sure that has been taken into consideration in the construction of the unit. this is also the reason of my concern as indicated in my previous post that the tubing is the primary problem of this system. maybe they can use some kind of braided tubing for reinforcement to withstand the elevated pressure over long lifetime but that would render the liquid invisible which would lose the "cool factor" but from a physics standpoint the science behind it is sound.

this is not the 1st time this type of principle is used. it's a close relative to the heatpipe principle and here is another similar concept that uses the same physics

https://www.google.com/patents/US5606341
https://www.google.com/patents/US7337829

whether you believe the concept works or not, it's up to you. but if you go by the "vids or it didn't happen" principle... then the vid has already provided biggrin.gif
Edited by psyclum - 3/31/14 at 10:41pm
post #12 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by psyclum View Post

/shrug.

it's simple physics... you boil liquid, it becomes a gas. gas is lighter then liquid so gravity will drive the gas bubble to travel upwards. THAT is the pump...

as for "pumping loss"... what exactly are you "losing"? the energy that is DRIVING the "pump" is the heat generated by the CPU... so "LOSING heat" is actually the job description for a heatsink isn't it?

as for the "speed" of the pump, it is directly related to the amount of heat that is boiling the liquid. low heat = slower boil, high heat = fast boil. as long as the radiator is able to dissipate the heat, the gas will be returned to liquid state as quickly as it's cooled down and gravity will pull the liquid back to the waterblock to be reboiled so there wouldn't be much of a pressure problem. you MAY run into a pressure problem if your radiator is too small or your fan is broken and not dissipating the heat fast enough and the additional gas would increase the pressure to ultimate failure pressure, but i'm sure that has been taken into consideration in the construction of the unit. this is also the reason of my concern as indicated in my previous post that the tubing is the primary problem of this system. maybe they can use some kind of braided tubing for reinforcement to withstand the elevated pressure over long lifetime but that would render the liquid invisible which would lose the "cool factor" but from a physics standpoint the science behind it is sound.

this is not the 1st time this type of principle is used. it's a close relative to the heatpipe principle and here is another similar concept that uses the same physics

https://www.google.com/patents/US5606341
https://www.google.com/patents/US7337829

whether you believe the concept works or not, it's up to you. but if you go by the "vids or it didn't happen" principle... then the vid has already provided biggrin.gif

Sorry, but what exactly are we arguing here? I love science :3
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post #13 of 60
Thread Starter 
I'm not sure why this Silverstone demo is being defended so strongly as the solution I'm looking for in the OP.
Quote:
"vids or it didn't happen"
Like most people who discuss CPU cooling performance I'll go with "temps or it didn't happen"

I'm not and haven't argued the science of "hot air goes up" but there's no data at all on how efficient that silverstone demo setup was. If it works very well why is there no product? Why are there no other products in any field using this very simple design to move heat? Most likely because it's not as effective as existing methods.

I also love science
youtube =/= science
patents =/= science (patents aren't even proof of functionality let alone production viability)
Quote:
low heat = slower boil, high heat = fast boil
Actually in a pressure sealed system more heat = higher pressure = higher boiling point = higher fluid temperature = less efficient heat extraction. The system will however reach equilibrium and behave pretty much like a slow moving water loop. Whether the effect of an evaporation phase will compensate for the lack of impingement turbulence and the fact that the hotplate is partially covered by thermally insular gas is not clear.
Edited by matman - 4/1/14 at 3:01am
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post #14 of 60
Thread Starter 
Ok I think I have an analogy to illustrate pumping losses.

If you set up liquid nitrogen in a pot on a CPU it will boil and remove energy as nitrogen gas escapes. If you trapped some pressure produced and used it to pump some water around a loop that pressure would feed back into the system and reduce the effective cooling of the system.

A heatpipe produces a very effective phase cycle with very little pumping overhead. There is just no way this system can be as efficient while pumping a kilo of liquid around.
Edited by matman - 4/1/14 at 4:02am
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post #15 of 60
The coolant used is very important. For example the phase change of something like R134 will absorb / release many times more heat than water can.

Captherm MP1120 is also a phase change heat powered cooler
http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=267032
post #16 of 60
Thread Starter 
Very nice. I hope they succeed and show everyone else the next step in CPU cooling.

Current premium coolers all seem to be just taking off the shelf heat pipes and slapping them between a block and a radiator. There's bound to be significant gains in truly optimising a heatpipe/phase change design for CPU cooling. These guys seem to be stepping up with some real R&D.

Hard to say from pictures or website but it seems to be a heavily custom vapor chamber heatpipe hybrid.

Regardless the technology though there is no substitute for moving more cool air through the radiator. I stand by my proposed model.
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post #17 of 60
Was just looking at your OP and wondering... horizontal pipes through base with both sides going up to fin block would seem logical. Twice to cooling area from same heat area. This would also increase area available on pipe between fins and base for mounting.

Isn't this why most coolers use double ended pipes?
post #18 of 60
Thread Starter 
You are making perfect sense. I was just worrying about keeping the pipes as short and vertical as possible. Thank you.

Considering how long it took me to make just a single pipe bend in Sketchup, drawing this revision is going to take me a while. It's significant enough that I definitely want to draw it again now.
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post #19 of 60
You could just get a Zalman TNN 500AF
or a Zalman LQ1000 Z-Machine Hybrid Liquid Cooled Case (w/WB5+)
or the ThermalRight HSC-101
or Quiet PC Zeno H61 Fanless Media PC

There are others. At the 2007 and 2008 Computex show there were several passive cooling concept cases displayed
post #20 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by matman View Post

I'm not sure why this Silverstone demo is being defended so strongly as the solution I'm looking for in the OP.

Like most people who discuss CPU cooling performance I'll go with "temps or it didn't happen"

I'm not and haven't argued the science of "hot air goes up" but there's no data at all on how efficient that silverstone demo setup was. If it works very well why is there no product? Why are there no other products in any field using this very simple design to move heat? Most likely because it's not as effective as existing methods.

I also love science
youtube =/= science
patents =/= science (patents aren't even proof of functionality let alone production viability)
Actually in a pressure sealed system more heat = higher pressure = higher boiling point = higher fluid temperature = less efficient heat extraction. The system will however reach equilibrium and behave pretty much like a slow moving water loop. Whether the effect of an evaporation phase will compensate for the lack of impingement turbulence and the fact that the hotplate is partially covered by thermally insular gas is not clear.

yes, however, this is only true IF the heat is not being removed by the radiator. IF the heat is removed, the gas condense back into a liquid and reduces pressure and boiling point drops again. as mentioned, the speed of the pump is dependent on the heat generated by the cpu. high heat = more boiling of the liquid. as long as the radiator is capable of dissipating the heat produced, the pressure(boiling point) will not exceed the designed specs of the system. you seem to think the entire system is filled with water. this can not be true for the science to work in this type of system. the radiator portion of the setup is a vapor chamber where hot gas is converted back into liquid. so the total amount of liquid involved is simply the amount that is contained in the hotplate as well as the tubes. (just like heatpipes are not filled entirely with liquid either tongue.gif ) the radiator portion of the system must remain a gas expansion/cooling chamber that becomes pressurized. the amount of pressure depends on how quickly the heat can be dissipated and converted back into liquid state. so the total amount of liquid in the system is not as much as you think if the science of the system is to work properly.

as for why i'm defending this.. i'm talking about the science behind the product. i can care less if silverstone or any other manufacture made the product biggrin.gif as Doyll has pointed out, captherm has a product that uses similar principle. why are the product not on the market yet? construction cost and generally accepted practice. just as heatpipes are once rarely used as heatsinks the need for that level of technology has made the market viable for the product. it's more expensive to make a heatsink with heatpipe and fins so they used to use large chunks of aluminum or copper since it's cheaper. but now the thermal demands requires more effective heat removal, heatpipes have become mainstream. the silverstone product simply banks on the acceptance/popularity of having a radiator in a system as well as the demand for quieter cooling system in the marketplace. whether the system is in fact quieter is yet to be seen (boiling liquid can be quite loud) what it comes down to is cost. in the past people are resistant to buying a heatsink that cost over $100. however as the popularity of the H100i and similar product grows, the cost barrier has been broken. a large radiator based cooler with its associated cost becomes a viable product for the marketplace. this is the reason why you haven't seen this type of product on the market till now, it's an economic reason, not because of the science.

the vid is shown as a prototype. they may not release the product depending on how well received the product is. however just because something is not a consumer product, doesn't mean the science behind the product doesn't work smile.gif consumers are inherently fickle and resistant to change. it's like the BTX specification intel tried to push out years back. it's a MUCH better thermal design then ATX, however the market decided that ATX will be here to stay biggrin.gif too bad because i preferred the BTX design since it allowed for more efficient airflow/cooling.
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