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post #31 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by matman View Post

@H-man: Sideways orientation will impact performance. As the pipes get longer wicks lose performance and gravity plays a greater role. The radiator has to stay above the CPU and the pipes have to stay close to vertical.

@DuckieHo: Diminishing returns? This is almost universally true in thermodynamic systems. Everything is on a performance curve(s). Ask a PC enthusiast if it's ever OK to spend 50% more to receive 25% more performance....

lol heatsink case. Far less practical than even the OP.

Already done? I disagree.

Heatsink case might be more practical in terms of support of the weight or fitting into a case.

There are already massive heatsink like the Scythe Orochi or Susanoo. They really don't perform that well compared to smaller more optimized HS.

What's the benefit's of the OP's design again?
* Twice the facing area of the best current designs (shown to not yield that much gain as the two HSF above have even greater outer surface area)
* Allows unrestricted ambient intake and exhaust (not really if inside a case)
* Optimal heatpipe orientation for gravity feed (but requires longer heatpipes negating some of this benefit)
Edited by DuckieHo - 4/2/14 at 11:02pm
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post #32 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by matman View Post

heh doyll. You seem to be a little excited about what Captherm is doing. I browsed through their materials which superlatively compare their product to air and water cooling. I didn't see any mention of heatpipe coolers and I think I know why. Heatpipes as we know them in current cpu coolers are multi phase (liquid/gas). I would be very surprised Captherm's Multiphase (trademarked?) isn't just variation on a heatpipe. I'm not at all suggesting that they haven't done anything novel or clever and I hope they are able to apply different construction and materials to improve on the performance over existing multi phase devices - heatpipes.

As for the argument of air vs water vs multi phase: Unless a cooler is pumping heat into something other than air it can still be considered an air cooler. Our terms describing coolers are really more about how heat is moved from the source to the radiator be it pure copper plate, recirculated liquid or phase change heat pipe.

If you measure in terms of performance per radiator surface area current heatpipe coolers are the most efficient, so much so that doubling the efficiency of the heatpipe would do next to nothing for your CPU temps unless you also increase the capacity of the attached radiator.

Just to be clear: Water is NOT better than air. Water loops with a 140mm radiator are less efficient than heatpipe coolers with 140mm radiators. If we can make a heatpipe cooler with a 280mm radiator it will be more efficient than a 280mm water loop. Flexibulity of radiator size and placement is what makes water the premium choice today and that probably won't change soon. The very best (above ambient) cooler that *could* be made today would use phase change heat transport, not a water loop.

Back to the Captherm product. It could be 20x better at moving heat from CPU to radiator and still be worse than an NH-U14S if the radiator itself isn't more efficient too. As I've said before, there's no substitute for moving more air over the radiator.

With what certainty or proof could you say that 'water is not better than air'?

I beg to differ, but pretty much these days all automotive vehicles have water pumps and radiators that cools the engine. How much can one rely on a heatsink w/ fan to do that?

And also, how can 140mm radiators be 'inefficient' compared to 140mm heatsinks?

My argument is, because water has a lot faster moving particles, the transfer of heat should theoretically be more quicker, and hence, making what you are, run more cooler.
post #33 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by matman View Post

heh doyll. You seem to be a little excited about what Captherm is doing. I browsed through their materials which superlatively compare their product to air and water cooling. I didn't see any mention of heatpipe coolers and I think I know why. Heatpipes as we know them in current cpu coolers are multi phase (liquid/gas). I would be very surprised Captherm's Multiphase (trademarked?) isn't just variation on a heatpipe. I'm not at all suggesting that they haven't done anything novel or clever and I hope they are able to apply different construction and materials to improve on the performance over existing multi phase devices - heatpipes.

As for the argument of air vs water vs multi phase: Unless a cooler is pumping heat into something other than air it can still be considered an air cooler. Our terms describing coolers are really more about how heat is moved from the source to the radiator be it pure copper plate, recirculated liquid or phase change heat pipe.

If you measure in terms of performance per radiator surface area current heatpipe coolers are the most efficient, so much so that doubling the efficiency of the heatpipe would do next to nothing for your CPU temps unless you also increase the capacity of the attached radiator.

Just to be clear: Water is NOT better than air. Water loops with a 140mm radiator are less efficient than heatpipe coolers with 140mm radiators. If we can make a heatpipe cooler with a 280mm radiator it will be more efficient than a 280mm water loop. Flexibulity of radiator size and placement is what makes water the premium choice today and that probably won't change soon. The very best (above ambient) cooler that *could* be made today would use phase change heat transport, not a water loop.

Back to the Captherm product. It could be 20x better at moving heat from CPU to radiator and still be worse than an NH-U14S if the radiator itself isn't more efficient too. As I've said before, there's no substitute for moving more air over the radiator.
Yes, I am very interested in seeing how well the MP1120 performs. From the information available it cools 4c better than H80 does. And that is very impressive given it's size. Explosion welded tri-metal base for better heat transfer and a coolant designed specifically for better cooling is exciting stuff.
http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=267032

Water cooling is definitely better than air cooling. rolleyes.gif
Phase change done properly is even better still.
  • Type of coolant determines how well the phase change works.
  • As said before coolants used in refrigeration are much better than water.
  • Captherm is using special coolant, not water.

"140mm radiator "is not a description of anything. wink.gif
  • For example H80 and H100 cool about the same, but H100 has twice the surface area.
  • What thickness?
  • Fin count per inch?
  • Number of cores?
  • What material?
  • Twin Tower air coolers have 2 face areas of 140x120mm. Very similar to face area of 240 radiator.

As for your definition of "air coolers" I know of only one cooling system that does not fit your definition. It has 100 feet of 1" plastic pipe buried 6' deep in marshy ground. thumb.gif
Edited by doyll - 4/3/14 at 3:02pm
post #34 of 60
i have a heat sink KIND OF like that at work.

EDIT: i mean the one in OP
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post #35 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Man View Post

With what certainty or proof could you say that 'water is not better than air'?

I beg to differ, but pretty much these days all automotive vehicles have water pumps and radiators that cools the engine. How much can one rely on a heatsink w/ fan to do that?

And also, how can 140mm radiators be 'inefficient' compared to 140mm heatsinks?

My argument is, because water has a lot faster moving particles, the transfer of heat should theoretically be more quicker, and hence, making what you are, run more cooler.

water is simply a transport medium in liquid cooling. water is better at "moving" the heat away from the heat source because there is a pump that is forcing the water to move. any/all current cooling solutions on the market are "technically" air coolers since the actual dissipation of heat is still done on a "radiator" of sorts with fans blowing air pass the radiator to remove the heat smile.gif

we should make distinctions between thermal transport/conductivity vs thermal capacity vs thermal dissipation in these types of discussions because they are distinctly different ideas all related to cooling.
post #36 of 60
Thread Starter 
I need to clarify a little.

Air is not air these days.

Most current "air" coolers are heatpipe coolers. They move heat from a cpu block to a radiator using phase change heatpipes. In theory heatpipes move heat more efficiently than water. The Noctua NH-U14S is representative of what people call an air cooler even though it's no more an air cooler than a H100 is.

So

My claim is that "air" (phase change) coolers perform better than water coolers given equivalent radiators (same fin surface area and ambient facing area and airflow velocity) Most water setups have radiators that wouldn't fit in the area above a cpu. Those water setups than can fit in the heatsink area are outperformed by heatpipe coolers. A heatpipe cooler with a nice 280mm radiator will perform better than a water loop with an equivalent radiator.

A good 280 mm radiator is enough to achieve the best above-ambient overclock for current CPUs. Current 140mm coolers just can't move enough heat off the radiator to keep 200+watts cool and stable.
Edited by matman - 4/3/14 at 7:16pm
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post #37 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by matman View Post

I need to clarify a little.

Air is not air these days.

Most current "air" coolers are heatpipe coolers. They move heat from a cpu block to a radiator using phase change heatpipes. In theory heatpipes move heat more efficiently than water. The Noctua NH-U14S is representative of what people call an air cooler even though it's no more an air cooler than a H100 is.

So

My claim is that "air" (phase change) coolers perform better than water coolers given equivalent radiators (same fin surface area and ambient facing area and airflow velocity) Most water setups have radiators that wouldn't fit in the area above a cpu. Those water setups than can fit in the heatsink area are outperformed by heatpipe coolers. A heatpipe cooler with a nice 280mm radiator will perform better than a water loop with an equivalent radiator.

A good 280 mm radiator is enough to achieve the best above-ambient overclock for current CPUs. Current 140mm coolers just can't move enough heat off the radiator to keep 200+watts cool and stable.

Water is a much, much better heat conductor than air.
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post #38 of 60
Thermal conductivity- how well a material conducts heat.
Thermal capacity- from Wikipedia "Heat capacity, or thermal capacity, is the measurable physical quantity of heat energy required to change the temperature of an object by a given amount."
Thermal dissipation- the process of dissipating heat, this is done by the radiator (the heat is conducted from the heatpipes into the radiator's fins and is dissipated throughout the fins.
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post #39 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dctr View Post

Water is a much, much better heat conductor than air.

CORRECT!
And phase change heatpipes conduct better than water.

Once more. Heat pipe coolers aren't an "air cooler" any more than a water loop is. Both dissipate heat into air, Both transport heat using something better than bare metal.

Water loops generally perform better than heat pipe coolers because they generally have much more powerful radiators (that's the thermal dissipation part).
Edited by matman - 4/3/14 at 11:15pm
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post #40 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by matman View Post

CORRECT!
And phase change heatpipes conduct better than water.

Once more. Heat pipe coolers aren't an "air cooler" any more than a water loop is. Both dissipate heat into air, Both transport heat using something better than bare metal.

Water loops generally perform better than heat pipe coolers because they generally have much more powerful radiators (that's the thermal dissipation part).

Well that's actually incorrect. If you're thinking that the bigger the radiator, the more cooler it would perform, in water cooling, well that's not true. e.g. if you wanna cool a 4770K in a single loop, then particularly getting anything above a decent 240mm wouldn't make any difference as in the end, all it's doing is bring down the temperature to the nearest ambient reading. You only need a specific amount of rad space for the part that you're cooling, and anything above it really doesn't make a difference. This also means that if one doesn't have really good ambient temps, then that's when Dual-tower air cooler and water coolers perform really close, I'd say a difference of less than 5%.

Where does water cooling really shine?
Water cooling truly shines when you have really good ambient's, in that way, the cold water keeps getting cooler and plays a large impact on cooling the system. Air coolers in cold ambients also work great, but only till a certain extent as the heat vs cold factor is cancelling each other in terms of a solid, meaning that the molecules in a solid are barely moving, so it's harder for it to react like that.
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