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Anyone knows something about this? What is this, which bachelor teach you to do this? - Page 3

post #21 of 39
Thread Starter 
Well i gotta say, my uncle is Electrical Power Engineer and the difference betweem him and the electrical technicians and workers who he commands is really big, there are no confussion among them, everyone has it's own job and it is well defined but i guess in computer science perfomance is dictated by who really does know how to do the job (programming), avoiding the fancy fact of a degree, master etc.Please correct me.
post #22 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

I really wish I could believe you, but I've found uni graduates to be no better nor worse than any other employee for that on average.

That's just my observations anyway.
Well, there's always a few people who are just good.....

Most cert people I work with can get A done, B done, C done. Some uni people.... stop and say.... why bother doing A, B, C when I can just do Z?

Quote:
Originally Posted by l0max View Post

certificates take dedication and can prove genuine knowledge, but can also be easily faked in my experience.
degrees vs. certs can go either way but i recognize certifications with real experience better for the job.

If certs take dedication.... what's a 4 year degree then?

A 4 year degree + real experience tend to be more adaptable.


A programming cert for something like Java means they can program Java.....

A comp sci degree means they can probably do OOP but also know bit about OS, SQL, design patterns, etc. They could probably learn Java easily enough.
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post #23 of 39
Thread Starter 
The thing is i don't understand why in computer science you gotta even discuss about difference beteween a graduated and a non graduate, i mean, look for explample the Industrial enviroment, Control and automation Engineers learn a lot of control modeling, plc and pid programming, you NEED to know chemical, physics and maths only to manage to say a robot to move, all in 4 years, this is something none electrical tecnician is able to do. So i'm starting to think Computer Science Bachelor sucks balls. sinces everybody and his horse can program in C and Java. tongue.gif
Edited by Sujeto 1 - 4/1/14 at 10:13pm
post #24 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sujeto 1 View Post

The thing is i don't understand why in computer science you gotta even discuss about difference beteween a graduated and a non graduate, i mean, look for explample the Industrial enviroment, Control and automation Engineers learn a lot of control modeling, plc and pid programming, you NEED to know chemical, physics and maths only to manage to say a robot to move, all in 4 years, this is something none electrical tecnician is able to do. So i'm starting to think Computer Science Bachelor sucks balls. sinces everybody and his horse can program in C and Java. tongue.gif

...but CS also covers OS, compilers, SQL, web, algorithms, design, modeling, etc.

Computers science is not just being able to write code. Writing programs is the easy part.... figuring out what needs to be created, how to create, testing, maintaining it, etc is vastly harder.

I work with PhDs who can write code.... that's not the same thing as being a developer.
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post #25 of 39
Not only that, Computer Science teaches you how the underlying hardware works, which is crucial to understanding efficiency. I even took a class that taught us about dynamic instrumentation and, as a result, taught us all how to exploit vulnerabilities in running programs, which was unbelievably cool and extremely insightful into how to create secure programs.

I unfortunately started my degree in Business before I realized my passion for computer science. Regardless, I ended up taking the core Computer Science classes and I can't think of a more valuable and interesting way to spend my time as an undergrad. To this day I wish I had done computer science from the get-go.

If you are serious about working with technology, desire to really understand how it works, and are going to go to a 4-year university, do Computer Science. It's tough, but it's immediately gratifying and incredibly useful. I plan to eventually get a second degree in computer science once I finish this one simply because of how enamored I am with what is taught in those classes.

Well, that, and I already have many of the classes completed... tongue.gif
Edited by SectorNine50 - 4/2/14 at 12:41am
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post #26 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Well, there's always a few people who are just good.....

Most cert people I work with can get A done, B done, C done. Some uni people.... stop and say.... why bother doing A, B, C when I can just do Z?
Like I said, in my experience graduates haven't proved any better nor worse at that than those that didn't go to uni. I think you're either inclined to ask those questions or you are not. And in the past people who were inclined to ask those questions went to uni but these days more people (in the UK at least) have opted to work instead of rack up debt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

...but CS also covers OS, compilers, SQL, web, algorithms, design, modeling, etc.
all of which can also be learned outside of uni.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Computers science is not just being able to write code. Writing programs is the easy part.... figuring out what needs to be created, how to create, testing, maintaining it, etc is vastly harder.
In my experience work teaches that better than education. You never realise just how important testing, maintenance and what not are until you have customers knocking at your door. Sure, education will teach you different methods to organise a team, but you can revise this stuff online just as easily and many companies will have their own ways of working anyway and be inflexible to change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

I work with PhDs who can write code.... that's not the same thing as being a developer.
A PhD is quite a bit different to a degree and I very much doubt many people with a PhD would be applying for the same kinds of developer jobs that people with degrees are likely to apply for.

However even that aside; I think it's a huge generalisation to say that someone cannot teach themselves to be a respected developer without going to uni. I've managed it, world renowned Perl hackers (including the guy that designed and built the test framework that CPAN now depends upon and what has since made Perl 5.8 the stable and dependable language which all Linux and UNIX servers now ship as standard) and I've also read about respected Facebook, Google and Twitter engineers who didn't go to uni either.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't go to uni though; just that uni wont turn bad programmers into good programmers and nor does an individual need to go to uni to become a good programmer. University is definitely the easier path too. But to say all uni is single handedly the reason for good programmers is hugely unfair - I'd say your observed correlation was more likely because those who cared and were smart enough to become the developer you respect also had the academic curiosity to push themselves through higher education. However there's also plenty of people who realised they'd rather go to work and learn instead of party and learn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SectorNine50 View Post

Not only that, Computer Science teaches you how the underlying hardware works, which is crucial to understanding efficiency.
So does textbooks and the internet.

Given the emphasis that some of you guys have made about how uni teaches the student how to research and teach themselves, then equally you have to accept that information is just as accessible to individuals who choose to teach themselves topics outside of university.
post #27 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

So does textbooks and the internet.

Given the emphasis that some of you guys have made about how uni teaches the student how to research and teach themselves, then equally you have to accept that information is just as accessible to individuals who choose to teach themselves topics outside of university.

I think you're misunderstanding my posts, I'm just saying that if you end up going to a 4-year, then that's the degree to get. Looking back a few posts, I think that I missed the turn that this thread took a while back.

And I agree with you entirely! I discovered my interest via the internet! I learned Java and Android development purely from internet sources, and continue to learn other languages and concepts from the internet to this day. There is an unbelievable amount of information available to us.

That said, it's pretty amazing how many programming/IT jobs require a degree before they'll even consider you. I'd say that, at least in my area, 8 out of 10 job postings for some sort of programming/IT position on LinkedIn have a degree requirement. Many companies appear to need some sort of evidence of knowledge and/or experience before they'll consider you, which makes sense, but sucks for many people who enjoy self-teaching.
Edited by SectorNine50 - 4/2/14 at 7:16am
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post #28 of 39
I still apply for jobs which even request a degree. Usually they mean "or equivalent experience" (some even state this). If an employer is that hung up on qualifications they usually place a greater emphasis on the qualification stating what subject it needs to be in, the grade you received or even the university you attended (as I recall from one job listing).
post #29 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan9 View Post

Like I said, in my experience graduates haven't proved any better nor worse at that than those that didn't go to uni. I think you're either inclined to ask those questions or you are not. And in the past people who were inclined to ask those questions went to uni but these days more people (in the UK at least) have opted to work instead of rack up debt.
all of which can also be learned outside of uni.
In my experience work teaches that better than education. You never realise just how important testing, maintenance and what not are until you have customers knocking at your door. Sure, education will teach you different methods to organise a team, but you can revise this stuff online just as easily and many companies will have their own ways of working anyway and be inflexible to change.
A PhD is quite a bit different to a degree and I very much doubt many people with a PhD would be applying for the same kinds of developer jobs that people with degrees are likely to apply for.

However even that aside; I think it's a huge generalisation to say that someone cannot teach themselves to be a respected developer without going to uni. I've managed it, world renowned Perl hackers (including the guy that designed and built the test framework that CPAN now depends upon and what has since made Perl 5.8 the stable and dependable language which all Linux and UNIX servers now ship as standard) and I've also read about respected Facebook, Google and Twitter engineers who didn't go to uni either.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't go to uni though; just that uni wont turn bad programmers into good programmers and nor does an individual need to go to uni to become a good programmer. University is definitely the easier path too. But to say all uni is single handedly the reason for good programmers is hugely unfair - I'd say your observed correlation was more likely because those who cared and were smart enough to become the developer you respect also had the academic curiosity to push themselves through higher education. However there's also plenty of people who realised they'd rather go to work and learn instead of party and learn.
So does textbooks and the internet.

Given the emphasis that some of you guys have made about how uni teaches the student how to research and teach themselves, then equally you have to accept that information is just as accessible to individuals who choose to teach themselves topics outside of university.

Of course work teaches a specific skills better than a general education.... that applies to most jobs. However, how do companies select who they should teach? HR goes through stacks of resumes and hiring managers then have to weed out what gets passed to them. Depending on industry.... many require something like BS or 4-6 years of work experience for entry jobs. (I spent the last 2 months apply looking for a new job so I went through a few hundred job postings!).

I never said someone cannot teach themselves... However, I think it's a huge generalization to say that many/all self-taught developers are all good. Those Facebook, Google and Twitter engineers who were hired without formal education are probably already top tiered engineers. Those top tier tech companies are already competitive so they are more of the exception.... If you don't have some impressive skills already, how do you get in? With the rise of online classes, people are more capable of learning outside of uni environments (no doubt about that).

There are gems employees out there from both certs and degrees.... (and bad ones). Having a degree has a higher probability of finding more well-rounded employees due to the required education and discipline. It's not drastic at all though.

However, after 5 years working..... your educational background matters less and less.



Oh, btw.... I'm hiring two entry-level developers if someone is interested in the greater NYC area! thumb.gif
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post #30 of 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

However, how do companies select who they should teach? HR goes through stacks of resumes and hiring managers then have to weed out what gets passed to them. Depending on industry.... many require something like BS or 4-6 years of work experience for entry jobs. (I spent the last 2 months apply looking for a new job so I went through a few hundred job postings!).
I hate it when people make those arguments because IT is easier than most industries to gain experience through freelance work. In fact I actively encourage uni students to do freelance while studying just so they have some experience under their belt when competing against other graduates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

I never said someone cannot teach themselves... However, I think it's a huge generalization to say that many/all self-taught developers are all good.
I didn't say all self-taught developers are good. I was actually arguing against your generalisation when you said uni graduates are better than those that are self-taught and/or learned on the job.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Those Facebook, Google and Twitter engineers who were hired without formal education are probably already top tiered engineers. Those top tier tech companies are already competitive so they are more of the exception....
You cannot dismiss those examples as an exception when I also gave other examples which weren't Google / Facebook engineers. rolleyes.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

There are gems employees out there from both certs and degrees.... (and bad ones). Having a degree has a higher probability of finding more well-rounded employees due to the required education and discipline.
I disagree. If you'd said "having a degree from a leading university (or even a masters / PhD)" then I would have agreed. But simply having a degree on it's own proves very little these days as there's so many bad universities out there teaching below average skills, and so many students that do just enough pass but don't really have the enthusiasm to work nor the aptitude to work things out on their own (I mean, how many times do you see students ask for help on their assignments on this forum alone? And the questions are often pretty damn basic - stuff I'd already mastered as a child hacking away on my BBC Micro).

There used to be a time when degrees meant something - these days I think it's just an outdated notion perpetuated by those who've already qualified as they like the perceived social standing it gives them. And I don't mean to be big headed here, but the fact that I've never struggled to find work despite my lack of a degree emphasises that many employers (at least here in the UK) look at experience in conjunction with qualifications rather than focusing on an outdated certification system.

Maybe this is one of those topics that the UK / US cultures see differently, but that's just my experiences of working here in the UK.
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