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[Think Computers] NVIDIA Maxwell 20nm GPU Lineup Delayed Until 2015 - Page 14

post #131 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoHnYBLaZe View Post

I won't go near maxwell until AMD lays down they're hand

Nvidia is making it very clear with the Titan Z that they would like they're prices to be much higher for maxwell

I would as well, and,

We also have to look into the Gsync/AMDsync environment as well now. It's just a hilariously good feature. Practically zero latency for perfect syncing.

So, we have to wait for Monitor releases up to the point 20nm hits the GPUs, though I guess if the monitors are late most will pick a GPU anyway.
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post #132 of 193
So you mean to tell me it is likely all nvidia will have for the next year is what they have now ? GK110 is already fully unlocked so they cant keep making new flagship GPU's out of the same core like they have been for some time now. AMD pricing is starting to fall again which will once again make them the value leader unless nvidia slashes prices again (unlikely) So it seems to me the only compelling product from nvidia is going to be the 650ti... Unless of course you are the ultra .5% that goes out and buys a titan-Z or 780Ti Black for $1,000+ But even then I am sure 2 lesser priced AMD's will be much faster.
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post #133 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by fateswarm View Post

28nm big Maxwell would probably be ~5% faster, if at all.

Why wouldn't it be?

Are AMD fools and NVIDIA found a big secret? Wake up, they are both good, and when one isn't, copies the other and gets in front easily. They are both on TSMC and they are bound to it. Now if one was on Intel and another on TSMC it'd be different (Intel would demolish the other).

Quote:
Originally Posted by fateswarm View Post

We can. Easily. It's a small chip.

Try to biggen it, it won't be the same.

AMD aren't fools. They would have done the same.


Hell, NVIDIA aren't fools, they would have destroyed the 290s will small Maxwells already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultracarpet View Post

scaling, scaling, scaling and oh did I mention scaling?

You guys know that your "scaling" argument relies on Maxwell scaling up worse than Kepler right? There's absolutely zero proof to back up that claim...
 
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post #134 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultracarpet View Post

scaling, scaling, scaling and oh did I mention scaling?

Except Gk110 is more efficient than GK107 or GK106 or GK104 in performance per watt. Cache isn't going to be double or tripled for GM200/GM204/GM206 according to techreport , so big Maxwell should have even better scaling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://techreport.com/review/26050/nvidia-geforce-gtx-750-ti-maxwell-graphics-processor 
I'm curious to see whether the upcoming larger chips based on Maxwell follow the GM107's lead by including L2 caches eight times the size of their predecessors. That may not happen. Nvidia GPU architect Jonah Alben tells us the L2 cache size in Maxwell is independent of the number of SMs or flops on tap.

GK110 gets about 20-21 Gflops/W (except for GTX 780 which is a highly cut down die) whereas GK106 gets 11-13 and GK104 gets 13 to 15 or so.

edit: see also
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/176785-nvidias-new-maxwell-powered-gtx-750-ti-is-hyper-efficient-quiet-a-serious-threat-to-amd 
According to Nvidia, breaking the unified SMX design into smaller blocks simplified the chip and allows for higher compute efficiency. Each SMM block of 128 cores is able to hit roughly 90% the performance of a 192-core SMX. For those of you keeping score, the implication here is that the 128-core design is far more efficient — 192 cores is 50% larger than 128 cores, but according to Nvidia, the actual performance hit is just 10%. The benefit of these smaller, simpler cores is that Nvidia can stuff far more of them into the same space, thereby improving the total number of cores on each GPU.

Maxwell has a much larger L2 cache than any previous GPU in this price bracket. Nvidia doesn’t give many details on why it expanded the L2, but we’re guessing it’s a critical component of the new SMM structure. In Kepler, 192 cores shared a contiguous L1 and a separate “Unified Cache.” With Maxwell, each pair of blocks within the SMM split a combined L1/texture cache. According to Nvidia, the new, larger L2 acts as a buffer for slower caches and for data sharing across the entire core.

Edited by AlphaC - 4/6/14 at 12:01pm
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post #135 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post



You guys know that your "scaling" argument relies on Maxwell scaling up worse than Kepler right? There's absolutely zero proof to back up that claim...

well if it did in fact scale so well, why on earth would they even go to 20nm? they would have AMD beat in every aspect by like 50% while being able to keep yields and margins good at 28nm. I don't know how big of a change Maxwell is architecturally, but it might affect the way it scales on 28nm with a bigger die and it's why they are needing to go to 20nm.

I'm not speaking with certainty here, really just playing devils advocate.
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post #136 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by fateswarm View Post

I would as well, and,

We also have to look into the Gsync/AMDsync environment as well now. It's just a hilariously good feature. Practically zero latency for perfect syncing.

So, we have to wait for Monitor releases up to the point 20nm hits the GPUs, though I guess if the monitors are late most will pick a GPU anyway.

AMD has a few hurdles to jump, frame-syncing and better coolers should be there main focus next round

And the drivers could be just a little better IMO, although I know they're improving

I'd like to have an all AMD rig one day, but the sad part is they just aren't competitive enough from where I stand
post #137 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultracarpet View Post

well if it did in fact scale so well, why on earth would they even go to 20nm? they would have AMD beat in every aspect by like 50% while being able to keep yields and margins good at 28nm. I don't know how big of a change Maxwell is architecturally, but it might affect the way it scales on 28nm with a bigger die and it's why they are needing to go to 20nm.

I'm not speaking with certainty here, really just playing devils advocate.

-We don't know what AMD is doing for their next GPU generation
-20nm has probably been planned for years, there's literally no reason not to do it because it would waste a ton of money spent on R&D already.

And playing the devil's advocate is fine, but to actually make the scaling argument you need some proof. Unless you're just purely speculating on some scenario.

The only real arguments in favor of worse scaling than kepler that I can think of are:

-GM107 doesn't have any GPC interconnects because there's only one GPC so adding more would require the extra logic and might make the scaling worse
-Since cache size is just purely decided by NV and isn't tied to a specific GPC, SMM, etc. count the cache amount could be cut down (per GPC) and this would increase the extra power consumption needed to access VRAM since it would have to be done more often.

Then again for good scaling you could make a ton of arguments:

-15% higher transistor density would pretty much automatically improve cuda core / ROP / memory controller / etc. count over 28nm Kepler designs, you don't even need architectural changes for this.
-One Kepler SMX is much bigger than one Maxwell SMM yet the Maxwell SMM offers 90% of the performance of the Kepler SMX (35% increase in per core performance)
-Maxwell clocks higher than similar size Kepler designs
-Cutting down the cache amount would give room for bunch of cuda cores / rops / etc.
-Even a small decrease in power would drastically improve high end (though unless maxwell scaling is incredibly poor the decrease in power consumption wouldn't be small) as current high end is pretty much completely power limited, so the power efficiency would actually help with performance more in the high end than low end.
-etc.

All in all "because scaling" is a pretty bad argument.
 
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post #138 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

-We don't know what AMD is doing for their next GPU generation
-20nm has probably been planned for years, there's literally no reason not to do it because it would waste a ton of money spent on R&D already.

And playing the devil's advocate is fine, but to actually make the scaling argument you need some proof. Unless you're just purely speculating on some scenario.

The only real arguments in favor of worse scaling than kepler that I can think of are:

-GM107 doesn't have any GPC interconnects because there's only one GPC so adding more would require the extra logic and might make the scaling worse
-Since cache size is just purely decided by NV and isn't tied to a specific GPC, SMM, etc. count the cache amount could be cut down (per GPC) and this would increase the extra power consumption needed to access VRAM since it would have to be done more often.

Then again for good scaling you could make a ton of arguments:

-15% higher transistor density would pretty much automatically improve cuda core / ROP / memory controller / etc. count over 28nm Kepler designs, you don't even need architectural changes for this.
-One Kepler SMX is much bigger than one Maxwell SMM yet the Maxwell SMM offers 90% of the performance of the Kepler SMX (35% increase in per core performance)
-Maxwell clocks higher than similar size Kepler designs
-Cutting down the cache amount would give room for bunch of cuda cores / rops / etc.
-Even a small decrease in power would drastically improve high end (though unless maxwell scaling is incredibly poor the decrease in power consumption wouldn't be small) as current high end is pretty much completely power limited, so the power efficiency would actually help with performance more in the high end than low end.
-etc.

All in all "because scaling" is a pretty bad argument.

It's purely based out of the business side not technical that I'm saying this. If they could deliver the massive performance per watt increase on the 750/ti, to their biggest dies and stay at 28 nm; there would be almost no reason to go to 20nm. AMD's current architecture is already losing the perf/watt battle at the top end, if NVidia really could make theirs that much better, AMD would have to pull an absolute MIRACLE out of the bag even if they went 20nm and NVidia stayed 28nm. It just doesn't make sense, especially in this industry, to be doing (spending) more than you need to when your competition is beat.
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post #139 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultracarpet View Post

It's purely based out of the business side not technical that I'm saying this. If they could deliver the massive performance per watt increase on the 750/ti, to their biggest dies and stay at 28 nm; there would be almost no reason to go to 20nm. AMD's current architecture is already losing the perf/watt battle at the top end, if NVidia really could make theirs that much better, AMD would have to pull an absolute MIRACLE out of the bag even if they went 20nm and NVidia stayed 28nm. It just doesn't make sense, especially in this industry, to be doing (spending) more than you need to when your competition is beat.

But the business side of NV can't make engineering decisions overnight and just decide to release big Maxwell chips on 28nm...

If such designs were to be released the design process would have begun ages ago, way before it was known that 20nm would not be ready yet. Just tape outs would have had to happen nearly a year ago.

Also the reason AMD is losing so badly with perf/watt in the high end is because they clocked their Hawaii cards stupidly high in order to get good reviews. GK110 per/watt flies out of the window once you actually clock it a bit higher. GK110 has 150-200MHz higher clock potential than Hawaii yet the reference GK110 cards are released with lower voltages than AMD designs and in some cases lower frequencies as well. GCN 1.1 efficiency is not that bad if you look at the 7790. Again, don't look at super high clocked "look at me I win at reviews" versions of the chip (260X or with hawaii 290X uber).
 
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post #140 of 193
Their competition is Intel and ARM , not AMD.

Nvidia Tegra K1 vs ARM (well Tegra K1 uses ARM , but all the ARM variants go here as well as Qualcomm mobile stuff) and Nvidia low end mobile GPUs vs more or less every ultrabook/tablet using Intel graphics , for example.

Nvidia Maximus (Quadro+Tesla) vs Intel Xeon Phi.
Edited by AlphaC - 4/6/14 at 12:40pm
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [Think Computers] NVIDIA Maxwell 20nm GPU Lineup Delayed Until 2015