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[Think Computers] NVIDIA Maxwell 20nm GPU Lineup Delayed Until 2015 - Page 18

post #171 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMI86 View Post

So that means everyone should just jump for joy and rush out and pour their hard earned cash in to proprietary tech ? No thanks I am not in that much of a hurry. With VESA now allegedly on board with FreeSync I think it becoming mainstream may be a lot closer than people that paid dearly for G-sync hardware would like to come to grips with.
Shipping freesync monitors in 2015 is possible, but may be too optimistic. It all depends on when the big display makers started working on a new ASIC. They won't go the FPGA route like Nvidia because of the risk of Nvidia killing their profit margins with an ASIC implementation of G-Sync. An ASIC takes a LONG TIME to develop and validate, and even longer to get into a shipping product. 2 years from the start of development is pretty normal, and if they waited for a finalized VESA spec before they started working on it, you're looking at 2016 at the earliest.
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post #172 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

You're deliberately misinterpreting my words it seems.

But I can also twist your words so here I go:
Copying something turning it into a standard which only requires a capable card to introduce the Vblank signal and a monitor eDP internally with no transceiver is actually innovation.
Doing more with less is innovation thumb.gif

Saying it can be done and hoping someone else does it is not innovation. That's what AMD has done.

If it were so simple for display manufacturers to do the legwork as the AMD forum defense league would seem to believe, why hasn't a single display manufacturer announced anything whatsoever about it?
post #173 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post

Shipping freesync monitors in 2015 is possible, but may be too optimistic. It all depends on when the big display makers started working on a new ASIC. They won't go the FPGA route like Nvidia because of the risk of Nvidia killing their profit margins with an ASIC implementation of G-Sync. An ASIC takes a LONG TIME to develop and validate, and even longer to get into a shipping product. 2 years from the start of development is pretty normal, and if they waited for a finalized VESA spec before they started working on it, you're looking at 2016 at the earliest.

You could very well be right. I was stating I like the path AMD is on with it. I didn't mean to make it sound like it is going to drop tomorrow lol. I was just trying to point out to all the nay sayers that if people actually start working with this it could be sooner than they might like to admit. Why would NV implementing a g-sync ASIC kill profit margins for competition using FPGA ? How these technologies are developed is somewhat new to me so if you have more information you could share I would love to hear.
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post #174 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

Saying it can be done and hoping someone else does it is not innovation. That's what AMD has done.

If it were so simple for display manufacturers to do the legwork as the AMD forum defense league would seem to believe, why hasn't a single display manufacturer announced anything whatsoever about it?
It is not in the cards but the display side of things has capable panels. If AMD gave me a sample card that could I could build a demo it is rather easy.
post #175 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

It is not in the cards but the display side of things has capable panels.

Not for desktop, they don't. That's the whole point. That development work still has to happen in order to make FreeSync happen, and AMD has quite clearly said that that burden will be on the display manufacturers, not them. Why people continue to insist that AMD be given credit for it is beyond me. When ASUS or Benq come out with FreeSync displays, they will be the ones who will deserve the credit, not AMD.

The FreeSync announcement was a passive snipe at Nvidia's G-Sync rollout, and nothing more. Passive because AMD is not actually doing any of the work.

And before anyone starts with claiming I'm just an Nvidia fanboy, I'll state for full disclosure that I have an AMD card. I would LOVE it if FreeSync lived up to the hype the AMD forum defense squad is generating. And note that the hype is only on the forums side - nothing AMD has actually said meshes with what its defenders here and elsewhere are saying about FreeSync.
Edited by Mand12 - 4/7/14 at 8:03am
post #176 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

Not for desktop, they don't. That's the whole point. That development work still has to happen in order to make FreeSync happen, and AMD has quite clearly said that that burden will be on the display manufacturers, not them. Why people continue to insist that AMD be given credit for it is beyond me. When ASUS or Benq come out with FreeSync displays, they will be the ones who will deserve the credit, not AMD.

The FreeSync announcement was a passive snipe at Nvidia's G-Sync rollout, and nothing more. Passive because AMD is not actually doing any of the work.

And before anyone starts with claiming I'm just an Nvidia fanboy, I'll state for full disclosure that I have an AMD card. I would LOVE it if FreeSync lived up to the hype the AMD forum defense squad is generating. And note that the hype is only on the forums side - nothing AMD has actually said meshes with what its defenders here and elsewhere are saying about FreeSync.

OoooOooOh, that firmware update for dp1.2 monitors that the monitor manufacturers are going to have to provide will be sooOoOoO difficult for them. Thing is, AMD got the vesa standard approved, that's work. AMD is going to have to write the driver for their graphics cards to perform free-sync, that's work. So pretty much, even if it's less work than what NVidia put in G-Sync, all of the R&D has been done by AMD for free-sync, you guessed it, work, by employees, that they have to pay.

Thing is, the bigger company with more market share is going to monetize things at every opportunity. It's up to 2nd place to undermine them. Guess who comes out on top? The consumer. You talk like you are the CEO of NVidia and that free-sync is a "personal" attack. Honestly dude....
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post #177 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultracarpet View Post

OoooOooOh, that firmware update for dp1.2 monitors that the monitor manufacturers are going to have to provide will be sooOoOoO difficult for them. Thing is, AMD got the vesa standard approved, that's work. AMD is going to have to write the driver for their graphics cards to perform free-sync, that's work. So pretty much, even if it's less work than what NVidia put in G-Sync, all of the R&D has been done by AMD for free-sync, you guessed it, work, by employees, that they have to pay.

Thing is, the bigger company with more market share is going to monetize things at every opportunity. It's up to 2nd place to undermine them. Guess who comes out on top? The consumer. You talk like you are the CEO of NVidia and that free-sync is a "personal" attack. Honestly dude....

A firmware update is not sufficient to make FreeSync work on desktops. It will require the display manufacturers to develop new hardware, and AMD has stated that it hopes they do it on their own rather than actually helping them. Do some research before you open up the snide "OoooOooOh" remarks.

If all the contribution you have is to repeat the same false, debunked misinformation that came solely from internet forum users who believe AMD can do no wrong while completely ignoring what AMD itself has said on the matter, then this is not going to be a productive conversation.
Edited by Mand12 - 4/7/14 at 8:21am
post #178 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

A firmware update is not sufficient to make FreeSync work on desktops. It will require the display manufacturers to develop new hardware, and AMD has stated that it hopes they do it on their own rather than actually helping them. Do some research before you open up the snide "OoooOooOh" remarks.

If all the contribution you have is to repeat the same false, debunked misinformation that came solely from internet forum users who believe AMD can do no wrong while completely ignoring what AMD itself has said on the matter, then this is not going to be a productive conversation.

WRONG. eDP been out since 2009 for laptops and small things and it includes the power saving feature for "seamless refresh rate switching". AMD and nVidia support it in silicon because it's in the standard and they're unifying their mobile and desktop silicon. Normal desktop monitors don't support it since it's an embedded interface, so nobody notices for years.

"ESA keeps doing their thing with regular old displayport, keeps making it better, starts planning v1.3 a while ago and which is now due out this year. nVidia sees this coming, since they're a member of VESA. Somebody at nVidia decides, let's pitch this old idea that's about to come to desktops anyway as our own before everybody else supports it because it's the freaking standard. Also, rebrand it so it looks like nVidia came up with it too. (copied that play from Apple I think)"

1.3 update, a regular dp will work
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post #179 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonsyph View Post

1.3 update, a regular dp will work

No, it won't. A spec update does not magically invent a panel controller capable of variable refresh. There are none in existing desktops - they have to be developed. That development will take both money and time, and AMD's official position is to let the display OEMs figure it out for themselves.

How many times must this be repeated before it sinks in?
post #180 of 193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

A firmware update is not sufficient to make FreeSync work on desktops. It will require the display manufacturers to develop new hardware, and AMD has stated that it hopes they do it on their own rather than actually helping them. Do some research before you open up the snide "OoooOooOh" remarks.

If all the contribution you have is to repeat the same false, debunked misinformation that came solely from internet forum users who believe AMD can do no wrong while completely ignoring what AMD itself has said on the matter, then this is not going to be a productive conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

No, it won't. A spec update does not magically invent a panel controller capable of variable refresh. There are none in existing desktops - they have to be developed. That development will take both money and time, and AMD's official position is to let the display OEMs figure it out for themselves.

How many times must this be repeated before it sinks in?
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seronx View Post

You can deploy the firmware via the dispayport cable(or even via the USB hub). It is actually quite easy to upgrade 1.2/1.2a to 1.2a (AMD Refresh-Sink Enabled).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seronx View Post

You can deploy the firmware via the dispayport cable(or even via the USB hub). It is actually quite easy to upgrade 1.2/1.2a to 1.2a (AMD Refresh-Sink Enabled).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seronx View Post

What you need:
GPU with the Sea Islands instruction set. (Hawaii, Bonaire, Kaveri, Kabini)
DisplayPort cable.
Monitor with DisplayPort (2011 and newer).

Then a firmware uploader from the monitor manufacture or chipset manufacture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seronx View Post

You don't need a hub unless multi-monitor and you only have one DisplayPort output.

---
The MSA TIMING PARAMETER IGNORE, allows these to be ignored:
HTotal -> Total number of pixel in a horizontal line.
VTotal -> Total number of lines in the video frame.
HStart -> Start of active video pixels relative to HSync.
VStart -> Start of active video lines relative to VSync.
HSyncPolarity/HSyncWidth
VSyncPolarity/VSyncWidth

Normally, the sink(the monitor in this case) must be able to read all of the MSA packets. The extended ignore means that the sink ignores all of the MSA packets and must regenerate the video feed itself. It basically forces the monitor to have the same frame rate as the GPU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seronx View Post

The G-Sync ASIC pairs the frame time of the GPU and the scan rate of the monitor. The ASIC has to be fairly powerful to actually do this.

AMD's implementation doesn't require an ASIC and can use the existing parts in monitors. The implementation is close to an enhanced DDM(Direct Drive Monitor) via DP and eDP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seronx View Post

G-Sync = GPU frame rate and Monitor refresh rate are synchronized via the ASIC.

Before G-Sync
http://www.blurbusters.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/FrameDeliveryGraphic_Tearing-1024x468.jpg
http://www.blurbusters.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/FrameDeliveryGraphic_Stuttering-1024x467.jpg

With G-Sync:
http://www.blurbusters.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/FrameDeliveryGraphic_G-Sync-1024x438.jpg

If the monitor is 60 Hz and G-Sync enabled, and you are playing Quake Live in which you are getting 300+ fps. The G-Sync ASIC is probably blending the frames down to 60 Hz/60 fps. If the monitor is 60 Hz and G-Sync enabled, and you are playing Crysis 4: The Slowdown with variable FPS between 30 to 60 fps. The G-Sync ASIC is actively changing the refresh rate of the monitor to match the GPUs displayed FPS.

AMD's/VESA's implementation = GPU frame rate and Montior refresh rate are coupled via the lack of MSA Timing packets.

If you have a 60 Hz monitor with DisplayPort and an AMD graphics card with ignore MSA timing. In which you are playing Crysis 4: The Slowdown with a variable FPS between 30 to 60 fps. The monitor is slaved to the FPS being outputted by the GPU, FPS = Hz. In the case of above 60 Hz with a 60 Hz monitor, it would probably function much like the G-Sync but the GPU is doing the blending.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seronx View Post

Yes.

The driver implementation is probably only going to be for Frame Pacing when the GPU goes faster than the maximum refresh rate.
For 60 Hz Monitors:
Frame rates below 60 FPS will be followed by a 0. Which says to the frame pacing part of the driver not to be active.
Frame rates above 60 FPS will be followed by a 1. Which says to the frame pacing part of the driver to be active.
I do not think AMD's or Nvidia's solution would impact performance or increase latency. Instead, it would decrease the impact/hit since users aren't running vertical synchronization.

... now who should I believe.... Someone who only quotes AMD marketing headlines, or someone who put some technical thought into it..........rolleyes.gif
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