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[Anandtech] Apple's Cyclone Microarchitecture Detailed - Page 4

post #31 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post

I wasn't suggesting it is. But that's where I think Apple should put all their effort.

I dislike quad-cores in smartphones and tablets, for several reasons. But especially because they can't run at full load without throttling -- I mean, even the dual-core 5S throttles somewhat.

I'd rather that Apple sticks with a dual-core and improves IPC, and ups the clock speed when a die shrink comes along.

Be assured that Apple is putting a lot of effort in increasing IPC.... however, it would be terrible short-sighted and risky to focus all efforts into it. Apple has a lot of cash, they can hire the people to look at performance holistically. These engineers are not stupid.... of course almost everyone would rather have a single-core, high IPC, and high frequency CPUs. However, they have to consider the cost-benefits in multi-dimensions.


Throttling is actually not a very good argument. With all else held the same....
Would you rather have a dual-core CPU that does a constant max 2GHz...
Would you rather have a dual-core CPU that does a 2.4GHz for a few seconds and then 2GHz...

The bursts of higher performance can be suited for certain user-interactive, asynchronous workloads.
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post #32 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Be assured that Apple is putting a lot of effort in increasing IPC.... however, it would be terrible short-sighted and risky to focus all efforts into it. Apple has a lot of cash, they can hire the people to look at performance holistically. These engineers are not stupid.... of course almost everyone would rather have a single-core, high IPC, and high frequency CPUs. However, they have to consider the cost-benefits in multi-dimensions.


Throttling is actually not a very good argument. With all else held the same....
Would you rather have a dual-core CPU that does a constant max 2GHz...
Would you rather have a dual-core CPU that does a 2.4GHz for a few seconds and then 2GHz...

The bursts of higher performance can be suited for certain user-interactive, asynchronous workloads.

Love your posts... Always informative.
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post #33 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt View Post

is it me or has Anand become an Apple fan boy lately? He seems to write more articles/reviews about Apple/iPhone than about any other company/product.
Lately he hasn't written many reviews about Apple products at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bencher View Post

They have been for years.

I never read their phone reviews anymore.
He used to write a lot of Apple reviews but I've not seen many in a while.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Be assured that Apple is putting a lot of effort in increasing IPC.... however, it would be terrible short-sighted and risky to focus all efforts into it. Apple has a lot of cash, they can hire the people to look at performance holistically. These engineers are not stupid.... of course almost everyone would rather have a single-core, high IPC, and high frequency CPUs. However, they have to consider the cost-benefits in multi-dimensions.
Yeah. I expect Apple will release a quad-core, but I'm still hoping they stick to dual-core and come out with some super new dual-core design or something.
Quote:
Throttling is actually not a very good argument. With all else held the same....
Would you rather have a dual-core CPU that does a constant max 2GHz...
Would you rather have a dual-core CPU that does a 2.4GHz for a few seconds and then 2GHz...

The bursts of higher performance can be suited for certain user-interactive, asynchronous workloads.
The 2.4GHz of course, but in that scenario it's more like Turbo Boost than throttling. The 5S' throttles its 1.3GHz dual-core down to 1GHz under full load, what would a quad-core at 1.3GHz do though? Is it going to drop down to 800MHz? Or even further. A little bit wouldn't be a big deal, but I think the 300MHz the 5S drops down is already pushing it a little.
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post #34 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post

The 2.4GHz of course, but in that scenario it's more like Turbo Boost than throttling. The 5S' throttles its 1.3GHz dual-core down to 1GHz under full load, what would a quad-core at 1.3GHz do though? Is it going to drop down to 800MHz? Or even further. A little bit wouldn't be a big deal, but I think the 300MHz the 5S drops down is already pushing it a little.

That example is flawed since you forgot to consider the fact of power-gating.

A more advance design for a quad-core could be:
1) In lightly thread but complex workloads, shut down two cores and throttle two cores to 1GHz.
2) In a heavily threaded workload, throttle all four cores to 700MHz.
3) In a medium threaded with mix complexity, set one core to 1.3GHz, two cores to 700MHz, and shut off one core.

Either way, the quad-core would match or beat the dual-core.
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post #35 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

That example is flawed since you forgot to consider the fact of power-gating.

A more advance design for a quad-core could be:
1) In lightly thread but complex workloads, shut down two cores and throttle two cores to 1GHz.
2) In a heavily threaded workload, throttle all four cores to 700MHz.
3) In a medium threaded with mix complexity, set one core to 1.3GHz, two cores to 700MHz, and shut off one core.

Either way, the quad-core would match or beat the dual-core.
I did not forget. I think you may have misunderstood what I said.

All I was saying is if the 5S throttles under full load from 1.3GHz to 1GHz, then a quad-core would throttle down even lower.
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post #36 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post

I did not forget. I think you may have misunderstood what I said.

All I was saying is if the 5S throttles under full load from 1.3GHz to 1GHz, then a quad-core would throttle down even lower.

What I said was basically NOT what you just said.

A quad-core could also disable two cores and throttle to 1GHz..

A quad-core is a superset of a dual-core.... having more cores still gives you more flexibility.



"If the 5S throttles under full load from 1.3GHz to 1GHz, then a quad-core could throttle down even lower. In a heavily threaded scenario, it would yield better performance and/or lower power consumption. In a lightly threaded scenario, it would perform about the same as a dual-core."

The difference is in "would" and "could".
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post #37 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

What I said was basically NOT what you just said.

A quad-core could also disable two cores and throttle to 1GHz..

A quad-core is a superset of a dual-core.... having more cores still gives you more flexibility.



"If the 5S throttles under full load from 1.3GHz to 1GHz, then a quad-core could throttle down even lower. In a heavily threaded scenario, it would yield better performance and/or lower power consumption. In a lightly threaded scenario, it would perform about the same as a dual-core."
I've not disputed that a quad-core would be more powerful. I was simply stating that the quad-core, under full load, would throttle more than 300MHz. I dislike, for example, that a 1.3GHz quad-core isn't able to run at 1.3GHz continually without throttling as they do on computers.

And out of curiosity... assuming the game is fully multithreaded... would there be any difference in performance between a 1GHz dual-core and a 500MHz quad-core of the same type? Assuming no throttling.
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post #38 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelbom View Post

I've not disputed that a quad-core would be more powerful. I was simply stating that the quad-core, under full load, would throttle more than 300MHz. I dislike, for example, that a 1.3GHz quad-core isn't able to run at 1.3GHz continually without throttling as they do on computers.

And out of curiosity... assuming the game is fully multithreaded... would there be any difference in performance between a 1GHz dual-core and a 500MHz quad-core of the same type? Assuming no throttling.

Again.... your statement is wrong.... A 1.3GHz quad-core can power-gate two cores and throttle exactly 300MHz. What KIND of load matters! You can't compare a dual-core to a quad-core without holding the workload constant.

It's just physics.... many tablet SoCs do have the thermal and power availability to allow these chips to run faster.


It's not that simple.... not all threads require the same resources and most threads in games still have to deal synchronization. The game example varies but a few faster cores will generally beat out more slower cores in gaming (have to worry about caches as well).

However, if you have an embarrassingly parallel workload.... a 4x500MHz cores should perform close to a 2x1GHz cores. It's very close but not quite the same generally due to some process overhead.
Edited by DuckieHo - 4/2/14 at 11:16pm
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post #39 of 42
On a related note. It seems like there aren't any Cortex A57 or ARMv8 coming to consumer devices this year. I wonder what's going on with the Android OEMs.
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post #40 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Again.... your statement is wrong.... A 1.3GHz quad-core can power-gate two cores and throttle exactly 300MHz. What KIND of load matters! You can't compare a dual-core to a quad-core without holding the workload constant.

It's just physics.... many tablet SoCs do have the thermal and power availability to allow these chips to run faster.
It's not wrong because that's not what I was saying. I intended for the load to be "full load": i.e., not constant. I fully understand with the same load the quad-core would do just as you said. (And for the record, I'm not comparing performance between the two.)
Quote:
It's not that simple.... not all threads require the same resources and most threads in games still have to deal synchronization. The game example varies but a few faster cores will generally beat out more slower cores in gaming (have to worry about caches as well).

However, if you have an embarrassingly parallel workload.... a 4x500MHz cores should perform close to a 2x1GHz cores. It's very close but not quite the same generally due to some process overhead.
Ah interesting.
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