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[Verge] Microsoft is bringing the Start Menu back - Page 30

post #291 of 423
Quote:
Originally Posted by tompsonn View Post

Its a registry change...

You can still change the default shell in Winlogon, but so much other stuff calls upon explorer automatically that I highly doubt you could use a Vista or later Windows without explorer being started, or something complaining it was missing, for very long (at least not without many more changes).

I could be wrong though. It's been a while since I tried to replace the default shell entirely with something that didn't have an installer of it's own. Might be time to try.

Edit: Well, I tried some things and while I can replace explorer.exe as shell with pretty much anything, I ended up tripping explorer.exe several times trying to use the system, especially via internet explorer, but this was probably because I didn't actually have a usable replacement shell available. I think removing explorer entirely would require the removal of internet explorer as well.

Anyway, you were definitely correct about being able to swap the start up shell the same way.
Edited by Blameless - 4/4/14 at 11:38pm
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post #292 of 423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

You can still change the default shell in Winlogon, but so much other stuff calls upon explorer automatically that I highly doubt you could use a Vista or later Windows without explorer being started, or something complaining it was missing, for very long (at least not without many more changes).

I could be wrong though. It's been a while since I tried to replace the default shell entirely with something that didn't have an installer of it's own. Might be time to try.

I don't know of anything that relies on actual explorer.exe running. If it does then its doing it wrong. The rest of Explorer is COM activated; for example a file open dialog loads in process and has no reliance on explorer.exe actually running.

I guess if you're looking for an entire shell replacement... well then that registry key won't help you because the shell is not just explorer.exe running - its also a bunch of COM classes and interfaces, which, you can in theory replace and I suspect is what any third party shell would do which is why it requires an installation.
Quote:
Edit: Well, I tried some things and while I can replace explorer.exe as shell with pretty much anything, I ended up tripping explorer.exe several times trying to use the system, especially via internet explorer, but this was probably because I didn't actually have a usable replacement shell available. I think removing explorer entirely would require the removal of internet explorer as well.

The shell registry key is fairly crappily named actually, it may sort of lead one to believe that one EXE can replace the entire desktop environment but that's definitely not the case. IE and explorer are not coupled anymore (though that doesn't stop IE calling upon Explorer's COM classes if it needs them), but you shouldn't need to remove Explorer if you want to attempt to replace the entire desktop environment. Just A LOT of work implementing COM interfaces and replacing the correct IID's and CLSID's in the registry (ouch!).
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post #293 of 423
Quote:
Originally Posted by tompsonn View Post

Just A LOT of work implementing COM interfaces and replacing the correct IID's and CLSID's in the registry (ouch!).

Yeah, it was definitely less work in the past.

I'd like to see a truly modular setup, where its a fairly easy matter to swap shells, not just disable one shell and paste a new one over it. The very existence of the registry is probably a real hindrance to this. I always thought it was a silly addition.

Maybe I should be playing with the core install of Windows Server...
Edited by Blameless - 4/5/14 at 12:00am
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post #294 of 423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Yeah, it was definitely less work in the past.

I'd like to see a truly modular setup, not just disabling one shell and pasting a new one over it.

It would be nice, but Windows was never designed to have replaceable desktop environments unfortunately. In the form of COM interfaces it technically is fully modular but for someone to re implement all of those and actually have a fully functioning replacement for the entire Windows user environment is a huge task.

... that includes making sure shell extensions from third parties like context menu handlers, property sheet handlers and what not still work with the third party environment. I'm sure you still want your 7-zip/insert product of choice context menu to work, or your third party file copy handler to work, or your favorite source control shell extension to work with your new environment right? redface.gif

These are all COM based too but the interface contract from the third party environment must be spot on, not to mention the hundreds of compatibility shims that Microsoft have in the current environment to make sure that dodgy extensions doing the wrong thing still work.

Whew!
Quote:
I'd like to see a truly modular setup, where its a fairly easy matter to swap shells, not just disable one shell and paste a new one over it. The very existence of the registry is probably a real hindrance to this. I always thought it was a silly addition.

Maybe I should be playing with the core install of Windows Server...

To be modular you must register components somewhere. That's that the CLSID keys in the registry are for, it says who implements a specific interface in which CoClass defined by a GUID, and how, whether it is a in process DLL or out of process EXE. You could swap out the registry for INI files or something else but you still need somewhere that says who implements what.

I don't think Windows Server Core really is going to let you achieve it either redface.gif

--

Oh and here's the list of shell interfaces a third party desktop complete replacement need to be compatible with (i.e. knowing which ones to implement and knowing which ones to call and when): http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb774328%28v=vs.85%29.aspx

eek!
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post #295 of 423
Quote:
Originally Posted by tompsonn View Post

You could swap out the registry for INI files or something else but you still need somewhere that says who implements what.

True, but the advantage of .ini files is that they can be stored with the application. Windows 3.x was way more modular than later OSes because there was no enormous central repository, mostly distinct programs in distinct directories linked to what they needed to be linked to by a few lines in autoexec.bat, config.sys, and a few other ini files. I can make fairly critical components of early Windows versions disappear by editing a handful of plaintext files and deleting a directory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tompsonn View Post

I don't think Windows Server Core really is going to let you achieve it either

No, but it doesn't really have a shell by default so it would be a cleaner slate to start with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tompsonn View Post

Oh and here's the list of shell interfaces a third party desktop complete replacement need to be compatible with (i.e. knowing which ones to implement and knowing which ones to call and when): http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb774328%28v=vs.85%29.aspx

eek!

Yeah...that looks like a lot of work.
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post #296 of 423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archngamin View Post

First of all, the ways I have listed do work. I don't know how you could deny it. This isn't a problem for anyone I know. Like I said before I was able to do it and everyone in my 50+ person work group was able to do it (including people that don't know anything about computers outside of architecture/estimating programs) and yet we have supposedly tech savvy people asking how they can type in vpn credentials. doh.gif At a certain point I just can't take you seriously at all. You went to prove how bad windows 8 is and only proved you are a terrible problem solver than can't adapt to a situation. You get the credentials in once and save it I don't know how it could be so difficult as to influence your experience with the rest of the operating system. I'm sorry but you are going to have to come up with better or more excuses to hate on win8 and have it actually be valid. Nitpick/cherrypick much?

I already explained to you, i'm familiar with rasdial back from windows 95. I could dial a vpn connection with my eyes closed. Please do not get ahead of yourself. You just admitted that windows 8 is flawed by saying "you are a terrible problem solver". You admitted there is a problem. Now re-comprehend everything you have typed from scratch, and put your "superior" head to use.
Do you know what the purpose of a vpn is to begin with? Your "50+ person work-group" is clearly clueless. This isn't about "getting it to work", it's about security and standards.

Something tells me all you do on your PC is play video games, this is why you don't notice any "productivity" decrease. Simply because you don't do anything productive to begin with. And your "50+ person work-group" is your high school class. You don't seem to have any enterprise knowledge and their standards
Edited by felon - 4/5/14 at 12:37am
post #297 of 423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

True, but the advantage of .ini files is that they can be stored with the application. Windows 3.x was way more modular than later OSes because there was no enormous central repository, mostly distinct programs in distinct directories linked to what they needed to be linked to by a few lines in autoexec.bat, config.sys, and a few other ini files. I can make fairly critical components of early Windows versions disappear by editing a handful of plaintext files and deleting a directory.

There is no requirement that an application use the registry. But in the case of COM components, the registration of them must be global (how else will COM activate XYZ class from ABC application?). Storing INI files with the application is great when they solve a local problem (and if you as a developer want to use an INI file to store your settings, go right a head!), but it won't work when registration (like COM) needs to be global.

However there is such thing as registration-free COM which applications can use as well.

The problem with INI files is they are not scalable once the complexity increases. There are thousands of Windows COM interfaces and classes. There are thousands more third party ones. May I point out Windows 3.x was hardly as complex as current versions...

The registry really isn't the problem here, its the complexity that you need to deal with to replace the desktop environment properly. The registry is just the little guy that glues together (in the case of COM), applications and modular components, whether Microsoft or third party ones. Microsoft could store a file called C:\com_registration.ini if you wanted to, but that would be a nightmare... but at least you would be able to nuke every single COM object in the system though just by deleting the file, right?

The registry is also transactional. INI files are not.
The registry can have fine grained ACLs applied to it by key. INI files cannot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

No, but it doesn't really have a shell by default so it would be a cleaner slate to start with.

That's probably more work LOL. tongue.gif
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post #298 of 423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtreme21 View Post

Windows 8.1 Pro is a far superior OS to Windows 7, those saying otherwise haven't used it longer then a couple days or spent the time to properly setup and tweak it to their liking.

That is incorrect. I used it for 6 months and did take the time to configure it. And I am saying that crap UI kills it for desktop usage for me. Damn toch thing kept always creeping back out.
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post #299 of 423
Quote:
Originally Posted by felon View Post

I already explained to you, i'm familiar with rasdial back from windows 95. I could dial a vpn connection with my eyes closed. Please do not get ahead of yourself. You just admitted that windows 8 is flawed by saying "you are a terrible problem solver". You admitted there is a problem. Now re-comprehend everything you have typed from scratch, and put your "superior" head to use.
Do you know what the purpose of a vpn is to begin with? Your "50+ person work-group" is clearly clueless. This isn't about "getting it to work", it's about security and standards.

Something tells me all you do on your PC is play video games, this is why you don't notice any "productivity" decrease. Simply because you don't do anything productive to begin with. And your "50+ person work-group" is your high school class. You don't seem to have any enterprise knowledge and their standards

If you can do everything you claim I don't see how you could be so dumbfounded as to not be able to type keys on a keyboard in a specific order. I called it problem solving because that is a tool one uses when one can't complete a task the way they were used to doing it. I also called it adapting but you obviously abandoned that approach. As to what I use my computer for it's actually a balance of architecture and gaming (almost like my username was Archngamin or something). In order to use my home computer to do my work i need to use a VPN regularly and have had 0 problems doing so. Now I think you need to do some re-comprehending.

On to if I know what a VPN is and the sad attempt you took predicting my personal life. A VPN is a virtual private network. VPN's are most often used to access data from the office to a remote location. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize people like me use a VPN to "get to work". Security obviously plays a part as no one would want their company files floating around the internet but the point of a VPN is to access secured networks remotely. Now if anything I have said is wrong please specifically point it out instead of trying to predict my personal life.

Anyway this thread is about Win8 and I don't see anything you have stated equating to Win8 being a bad OS. The only thing I have seen is that it is different and you having trouble adapting.
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post #300 of 423
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrawesome421 View Post

Now your completely avoiding the very comment of yours that I was replying to. Your post was not about "this is my personal opinion, and that is yours". No. That was the meaning of MY post. Try again. You said that people that don't like it didn't set it up or tweak it properly, or haven't used it enough. That's what I was commenting about.

Let me throw some of your own flawed logic right back at you with this:

You don't like Win 7 as much as Win 8. Well you just didn't spend enough time tweaking it and setting up Win 7 to make it as likeable to you.

Now, how silly does that sound now that a comment like that is aimed towards you and your opinion? Crazy right? Yeah, I think so too.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

In the end, Windows 8's existence affects me none at all. The only time it affected me is when I was using it. Which I am not now. And never will again. But this forum is going to have people on both sides of the fence speaking about the likes and dislikes of it. If you haven't noticed by now, this very thread is pushing nearly 30+ pages of people doing just that.

I will accept anyone's comments about either opinion. But do not tell me what I dislike about it is because I basically I didn't give it a chance or set it up properly. That's when I have to come to the rescue of my own opinion. Which I shouldn't have to do, no more than you should have to over your own.

In the context of transitioning from an old product to a new one, not giving the new product enough face time is a completely valid argument not a flawed one, its called the instant gratification mentality. Perhaps not for you but for others and again your acting like my post is attacking your way of life, just stating my opinion. You dislike Windows 8 I get it but you haven't provided any reasons why you do, instead you're attacking my post and my opinion.

You're twisting my words so no its not crazy, I used Windows 7 for several years and loved every minute of it. When Windows 8 came out, i tried it, it worked better with the majority of my programs/games, i liked the general overall feel of the OS and stuck with it.There were a few things I didn't like, so I tweaked them to my liking and now functionally Windows 8.1 Pro works better for my uses and programs, regardless of the start menu which is why many people commented on this thread to begin with was to tell everyone what we've all known since release, "You don't like the start screen."
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