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amd vs intel confused still - Page 4

post #31 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantron View Post

Intel's and AMD's TDP differ.

They do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantron View Post

AMD's is the maximum heat output while running at maximum, while it seems intel's is the maximum heat it can handle.

TDP is just what it says it is, thermal design power, or the amount of cooling parts of that series are recommended to have to always operate within spec at stock settings. Actual power consumption and heat output vary considerably from part to part.

In general, Intel's TDP ratings seem more conservative. At stock, I do not think I have ever been able to get an Intel CPU to reach TDP (I even have some 130w TDP parts that put out less than 70w in the newest versions of LINPACK or Prime95), but I have been able to get some AMD parts to exceed their ratings.

Anyway, it's definitely not related to tolerance, as my i7 970 and 3930k are both 130w TDP parts, yet both will consume and dissipate upwards of 220w at load at their current settings. My FX-8150 can push 300w. Indeed, pretty much any substantial OC will have load power consumption and heat far exceed TDP on AMD or Intel parts.

Anyway, TDP is not all that useful of a figure for end users, not without relevant context.
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post #32 of 99
Intel uses their own version of TDP IIRC. It's misleading to say the least, sort of like how their fabs measure 16.5nm as 14nm. It's pedantic, and it's misleading, but it's also really really sketchy business practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ladcrooks View Post

In time to come the cores of both intel and amd will be better utilized - I am hoping that the jag chips in consoles are going to pave the way for game developers. A big hope thumb.gif

Jaguar is a lot like K8, AMD's desktop architecture... from 2003. doh.gif That explains a lot of the consoles' limitations, and they will be forced to use multiple threads to get any real CPU performance. Bonaire and Pitcairn are quite nice GPU chipsets, yet for some reason they can't do 1080p/60FPS on consoles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vlps5122 View Post

the amd 8 core isnt a true 8 core

Really? Why? I'm looking at eight integer cores on an FX-8000 chip's die. I guess all FX chips have them, but some are disabled for the six and four core chips. ...Oh, do you mean the FPU? Can you show me the industry standard definition of core that says an FPU must be present for each integer core? Intel, using hyperthreading, has twice the logical cores as physical cores. By that logic, we can say that an i7 does in fact have eight cores. Man, what happens if/when HSA becomes more awesome and AMD ditches the FPU in favor of moving all floating-point operations to the iGPU? Do they become zero core processors? That would be crazy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantron View Post

Second point, yeah, but what I was getting at is that it does not improve IPC, it only improve multithreading performance.

It does improve the number of instructions a single core can retire at a given clock speed, with the caveat that there needs to be at least two threads executing them.

You are right in stating that single-threaded performance is not improved.

How does that work? You can't magically make a chip faster by splitting one core into two threads! Or does hyperthreading just allow the cores to be used more efficiently? E.g. while one thread waits on receiving instructions, the other can perform tasks, while if it were disabled, the single core would just wait for more instructions and waste cycles.
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post #33 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post

Not in single thread clock for clock.
Last time I checked PileDriver and Phenom II are still around the same clock for clock single thread wise and the Phenom II required a extra 200mhz to be equal to a equally clocked c2q. Takes 4.2ghz on a PII to equal a 4ghz C2Q, this is well known.


And I wouldn't call AM3+ new tech. Infact compared to even the old x58 AM3+ is about equal to that chipset using their 990fx chipset. Later in life X58 mobo's have everything current high end AM3+ mobo's have.



I'm not biased against AMD. I tell people get get amd cpu's like the fx6300 all the time. Also have had a few phenom II rigs in my time, no to mention pretty much using AMD from the Athlon XP to Athlon X2 era. Until I bought my Q9550 the last intel chip I had was a Pentium 3. Personally I just feel AMD has a crappy high end CPU lineup.

What AMD needs to do is release a FX chip using 6-8 Modules. Atleast then they would have something going from them.

I'm a big fan of their APU's though and low power chips.

Uh, from your own website, the fx8350 clearly beats the core 2 quad handily. http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/49?vs=697

It however matches the old phenom II, but overclocking each to their max(fx 8350 can hit 5ghz, and phenom 2 hits about 4ghz.) so when overclocked, the fx 8350 beats the phenom 2 at single threaded tests. http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/435?vs=697

AMD has a crappy high end CPU lineup, yes, but it also hasn't been updated in a long time now.
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post #34 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

How does that work? You can't magically make a chip faster by splitting one core into two threads! Or does hyperthreading just allow the cores to be used more efficiently? E.g. while one thread waits on receiving instructions, the other can perform tasks, while if it were disabled, the single core would just wait for more instructions and waste cycles.

Yes, it allows the core to be used more efficiently.

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post #35 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantron View Post

Yes you can compare a subaru to a mclaren, but does that make much sense? Not in the slightest, they are for different people and different workloads. I wasn't saying the 8 core was better than the 4 core, I'm saying comparing a top of the line i7 makes very little sense to compare it to an fx 8350.

The FX-8350 costs 40% less than the i7-4770K, and performs 10-40% slower depending on workload. Yes we CAN compare products with different prices and evaluate whether or not their price points and performance points make sense for a given application. The FX-8350 and i7-4770K both seem to be very well priced given their performance traits. What's the problem?
Quote:
Utter trash and absolute bollocks. Hyper threading does not improve IPC and does not involve a shorter pipeline. Hyper threading simply uses the same cache and execution areas as a normal core. It is out of order execution to improve multitasking, it does not improve IPC in any possible way.

Hyper threading allows the chip to perform floating point calculations and integer instructions AT THE SAME TIME. This improves performance up to ~30% in parallel workloads on modern CPUs.

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i5-4670+%40+3.40GHz&id=1933
http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-4770+%40+3.40GHz&id=1907

95% of that performance difference is hyper-threading. Same clocks, same architecture, only meaningful difference is hyper-threading.
Quote:
I'm not saying it needs a "participation trophy" or a "fairness doctrine". I'm simply stating that the top end CPU from AMD is two years old now, it should be very obvious that intel is able to improve on its cpus, while AMD hasn't changed since then.

Can you honestly, seriously, say with a straight face, that you made that original statement about AMDs PD chips being "2 years old" with absolutely no intention for anyone to infer any sort of additional meaning at all? You had no agenda with that statement at all? It was just a purely innocent statement with nothing beyond the literal meaning intended whatsoever? Sorry, I don't buy it.
Quote:
one much older than the other, similar to the fx 8350 vs i7 4770k or the i7 970. Those 3 CPUs also were for different markets,

The i7 and FX lines are in fact intended for the SAME market. The non-enterprise level consumer market for desktop PCs, gaming machines, and workstations.
Quote:
and the funny thing is the i7 970 barely beats out the fx.

A older chip that originally sold for $600 performing similarly to a new chip that sells for $200 is pretty normal. This is the standard progression of things. Newer tech always either offers higher performance for the same price or equal performance for a lower price, or some combination of these things.
Quote:
If you looked past blatant fanboyism for a moment, you'd realize that intel HAS been stagnating, performance gains have dropped significantly since AMD stopped competing well. Please show me benchmarks from a reliable source that shows the the i7 4770k is nearly double as fast as the i7 950, because I haven't found any.

Then you're not looking very hard.

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7+950+%40+3.07GHz&id=837
http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-4770K+%40+3.50GHz&id=1919

http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/core_i7_4770k_review,18.html

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7003/the-haswell-review-intel-core-i74770k-i54560k-tested/6

I'm going to assume you know how to extrapolate the performance of the 950 vs the 965 tested. Note the performance difference varies, sometimes it's narrow, sometimes it's nearly double, but overall average puts the i7-4770K at about 75% faster than the i7-950. If you want to debate about hitting greater precision (is it actually 65%? or is it 80%? or maybe 72%?) then I'm not interested. It's about 75% for all intents and purposes all things considered. While looking at those benchmarks, make sure to look at the difference between the i5 and i7 haswell products, up to ~30% performance difference; HYPERTHREADING.
Quote:
Considering semi-conductor tech has been improving both with different methods and die shrinking, that statement is invalid.

4 CPU generations, 1 die shrink, no major changes to the material being used to build CPUs. Yea,, I feel really invalidated here. 95% of the performance improvements in the last 5 years from Intel, have come from architecture changes and have little to do with the semi-conductor changes.
Quote:
Yes AMD processors are definitely worse than intel ones. But the arguments you have provided are absolute and total bollocks.

If an AMD CPU sells at a competitive price then it's not "worse," it's just an alternative. What the heck are you on about here? The only thing to me, that makes a CPU "bad" is when it is not priced competitively. Intel "Xtreme" CPUs, for example, and many of AMDs launch prices on FX chips have been highly optimistic. Once the price settles into the market any CPU with modern instruction capabilities can be great in its segment for the right application.
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post #36 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dantron View Post

Uh, from your own website, the fx8350 clearly beats the core 2 quad handily. http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/49?vs=697

It however matches the old phenom II, but overclocking each to their max(fx 8350 can hit 5ghz, and phenom 2 hits about 4ghz.) so when overclocked, the fx 8350 beats the phenom 2 at single threaded tests. http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/435?vs=697

AMD has a crappy high end CPU lineup, yes, but it also hasn't been updated in a long time now.


What do you not get about clock for clock?

PileDriver with a Entire extra GHZ will win out in Single Thread tasks.

With PileDriver only given a 300mhz league the single thread
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/48?vs=698


Also lets not forget Phenom II vs 45nm C2Q

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/88?vs=48

C2Q's we no doubt better in single thread clock for clock. So Just like you said if the PileDriver is Matching PhenomII in single thread clock for clock then it will be slower then a C2Q.

Though on the grand scale, PileDriver uses much better tech. Not having to deal with FSB and memory controllers build into the Northbridge. But when it comes to single core performance, AMD is having trouble getting past the point Intel was in 2008.
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post #37 of 99
I like to think of it like this in simplest terms:

AMD told us we need moar cores, and didn't to a good job on making single cores nearly as powerful as Intel's CPUs.

Intel told us here are the best single core CPUs around, and there is no need for more than 4 cores at this point for gaming.
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post #38 of 99
As long as you promise not to hyperfocus on IPCs, we're cool. Thing is, that's only half the story. The other half is clockspeed. Bulldozer and its successors are really good at hitting high overclocks. 5GHz on air is ridiculously easy on a 6800k, a chip that launched for $142 (I think?). With post-Sandy Bridge i5s, that's nearly impossible without water or delidding. The Haswell refresh might help, but no guarantees. (Incidentally, Intel's switch from solder to TIM actually makes Ivy worse than both its successor and predecessor when comparing them all at maximum overclocks). So sure, Piledriver has fewer instructions per cycle. Nobody disagrees with this. However, when overclocked, it can approach competitive IPSes (instructions per second: IPC * clockspeed), though it will by no means beat an i7 in general.

Also, why are we not comparing Kaveri to i5s? I guess that doesn't really help any pro-AMD argument since synthetic benchmarks show no gains, but they seem to just work better according to users.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razzle Dazzle View Post

I like to think of it like this in simplest terms:

AMD told us we need moar cores, and didn't to a good job on making single cores nearly as powerful as Intel's CPUs.

Intel told us here are the best single core CPUs around, and there is no need for more than 4 cores at this point for gaming.

I don't like you. You are a post-ninja! mad.gif

tongue.gif Bulldozer screwed up. It was built from the ground up and was not based on any preexisting architecture. Combine that with AMD's limited (to say the least) budget, and of course they aren't as good singlethreaded. They're working on it, but Excavator is currently nothing more than rumors and Steamroller was delayed a year. Intel undeniably has the better architecture.
Edited by CynicalUnicorn - 4/3/14 at 2:41pm
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post #39 of 99
Yea Kaveri is a tough pill at this point since most people buy CPUs to solve existing problems, rather than to solve a problem they didn't know they had.

Undoubtedly, Kaveri is probably the best existing example of the future of desktop computing, but buying into it today is about like buying a hyper-threaded Intel CPU; 10 years ago.
Edited by mdocod - 4/3/14 at 2:48pm
     
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post #40 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

I don't like you. You are a post-ninja! mad.gif

tongue.gif Bulldozer screwed up. It was built from the ground up and was not based on any preexisting architecture. Combine that with AMD's limited (to say the least) budget, and of course they aren't as good singlethreaded. They're working on it, but Excavator is currently nothing more than rumors and Steamroller was delayed a year. Intel undeniably has the better architecture.

Hehe, sigged tongue.gif

But you hit it on the head with your explanation too. Intel almost singlehandedly has the whole CPU market on lockdown. I just wish there were some more competitors out there for desktop gaming CPUs beside just AMD.
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