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amd vs intel confused still - Page 5

post #41 of 99
Yes, another Intel vs AMD thread!

Rather than parrot all the garbage we already know, I'm going to raise a question that I haven't raised in quite a while.

Why should an overclocker have to pay a premium to overclock on the Intel platform?

This fact alone made me stay away from pentiums and i3s of the last three generations. I'll be damn if I buy a locked chip, even if it is better!!!
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post #42 of 99
In a Piledriver vs haswell comparison, the numbers work out about as follows from what I have seen:

  • 1 thread per hyper-threaded core vs 1 thread per module, haswell is ~80% faster clock for clock.
  • 2 threads per hyper-threaded core vs 2 threads per module, haswell is ~30% faster clock for clock.
The above numbers work pretty good when comparing FX based PD chips to the hyper-threaded i3, i7,and E3 chips from the Haswell Family.

  • 1 thread per non-hyper-threaded core vs 1 thread per module, the i5-haswell is ~80% faster clock for clock.
  • 2 (or 1) threads per non-hyper-threaded core vs 2 threads per module, the Haswell and Piledriver perform the same clock for clock.
The above numbers work pretty good when comparing FX based PD chips to the i5/Pentium chips from the Haswell Family.

When overclocked vs overclocked, PileDriver has ~10-15% higher clock speeds. Performance tuning the CPU-NB and system memory becomes a wash for performance scaling against performance tuning just the system memory on Haswell, so in most OCed vs OCed scenarios where the system is performance tuned all around, we can just refer back to clock speed differences and apply them to the above "rules of thumb" for comparing and contrasting performance under different conditions.

Overclocked vs non-overclocked (often the case when comparing PD vs Haswell in the budget class under $200 CPUs), PD has ~30-70% higher clocks and AND some small gains from CPU-NB/System-memory performance tuning (a few percent usually) that can't be "washed out" on the non-OCing Intel competition.


Many modern workloads scale perfectly proportionally with parallelism and clock speeds, so you can extrapolate theoretical performance easily by adjusting for more or less modules vs more or less cores and higher or lower speeds etc etc.
However, there are also many workloads that do not scale in direct proportion to changes in parallelism (especially real-time workloads), so factor this in when comparing and contrasting.

     
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post #43 of 99
It's a shame it's not really possible to lock down the scheduler.
I can easily run 5ghz on one core on my 3770k.

It kinda works with affinity setting.
Then we could have a core vs core bench off since AMD hits 5 giggle hertz so easy.
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post #44 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by damric View Post

Why should an overclocker have to pay a premium to overclock on the Intel platform?

This fact alone made me stay away from pentiums and i3s of the last three generations. I'll be damn if I buy a locked chip, even if it is better!!!

I'll entertain an honest stab at this:

The ability to overclock is a "feature" that is worth money. Giving this feature away for free would be counterproductive, as they discovered in years past when EVERYONE just bought the lowest end chip in a particular class and overclocked the piss out of it. Just because we became accustomed to this being doable on all mainstream CPUs years ago, doesn't mean that the ability to overclock is some sort of unalienable right. Intel realized that that could sell this ability as a feature and I think it was a brilliant marketing decision from a business perspective. I would have done the same. Intel also realized that they can indeed charge more for OTHER specialized capabilities (instruction capabilities, VM capabilities, etc etc).

There are LOTs of modern electronics that are sold in ranges of feature-sets that are based on mostly the same guts with different things activated and deactivated to meet different price points. There's no crime here. It's good business.

When we buy an AMD chip that is overclock-able, we ARE PAYING for the ability to overclock it and all of those cool features (VM capabilities, encryption etc). If they were locked, they would be worth LESS than they are getting for them now!!! They are priced competitively (well, most of them are) with their ability to overclock factored into the classes they are competing in IMO.
Edited by mdocod - 4/3/14 at 4:37pm
     
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post #45 of 99
*kicks in the door*

What's going on folks!?

Let me answer this thread very very simply..............

There are VERY VERY VERY VERY few things that a person can do on a system, outside of specialized environments, that they would even be able to tell the difference between Intel and AMD at their comparable tiers.

Simply put: Intel vs AMD doesn't matter for a home user! Someone gaming on an 8350 or a 4770 couldn't tell you which was which while gaming, if they didn't already know. Same thing as you step down in tiers, arguably until you get down into the Celeron vs Sempron line.
    
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post #46 of 99
I agree with PostalTwinkie if a gamer was tested using a AMD gaming computer, then swapped to an Intel then asked which is which they wouldn't be able to honestly tell. they would just be guessing.
post #47 of 99
I have to disagree.
Stock chip vs stock chip Intel still gives a user a better experience in the majority of new game titles because of lack of optimization on game release. Brute force matters especially when your striving for highest level of all settings.

Who doesn't overclock an AMD?
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post #48 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

*kicks in the door*

What's going on folks!?

Let me answer this thread very very simply..............

There are VERY VERY VERY VERY few things that a person can do on a system, outside of specialized environments, that they would even be able to tell the difference between Intel and AMD at their comparable tiers.

Simply put: Intel vs AMD doesn't matter for a home user! Someone gaming on an 8350 or a 4770 couldn't tell you which was which while gaming, if they didn't already know. Same thing as you step down in tiers, arguably until you get down into the Celeron vs Sempron line.

HAHA@door-kicking awesome factor.

I have to disagree though. In worst case scenarios a PD chip can be as bad as delivering HALF the FPS (or fall behind real-time twice as badly) compared to Haswell in poorly threaded games that are nastily CPU bound. I could spot the difference from ACROSS THE ROOM between an i5-4670K and FX-8350 playing supreme commander 2 at stock clocks with 3000+ units. As many have mentioned in this thread, AMD is stuck on per-thread performance from ~4 years ago in many ways (PD is very similar to Nahalem in lightly threaded workloads). Without overclocking it was inadequate then for these types of games, and since those games still exist, it's still inadequate now. If We OC PD to ~5ghz (or OC Nahelem to over 4+ghz), then we're at 3ghz haswell performance in these games, and then these games run pretty decent.
     
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post #49 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdocod View Post

Undoubtedly, Kaveri is probably the best existing example of the future of desktop computing, but buying into it today is about like buying a hyper-threaded Intel CPU; 10 years ago.

Well, hyperthreading at least had some tangible general purpose use when it was released in 2002, and certainly made multi-tasking more responsive. HSA doesn't do much of anything for most people considering Kaveri at this point.

Still, the hardware has to come before the software, generally speaking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by damric View Post

Why should an overclocker have to pay a premium to overclock on the Intel platform?

This fact alone made me stay away from pentiums and i3s of the last three generations. I'll be damn if I buy a locked chip, even if it is better!!!

I don't like that Intel has locked the bulk of their parts and made platform design decisions that essentially remove base clock overclocking, but if I can still get a superior part for the task at hand, I'm not going to let that stop me.

People have been complaining about Intel and AMD implementing various anti-overclocking measures for the better part of two decades, and it's only recently that AMD has been unlocking the bulk of their parts.
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post #50 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

Well, hyperthreading at least had some tangible general purpose use when it was released in 2002, and certainly made multi-tasking more responsive. HSA doesn't do much of anything for most people considering Kaveri at this point.

Still, the hardware has to come before the software, generally speaking.

Yeah, hyperthreading was an excellent development back when CPUs still had a single core. Dual core CPUs being mainstream is a very new development. HSA? You're right, nothing much is using it yet. I don't think we need to worry about hardware adoption though. Everything can do it. Intel? iGPUs. AMD? Most x86 chips shipped have iGPUs. Phones and tablets? SoCs. Server chips? Other than AMD's planned Kaveri-based solution, there is none. I guess something like a Xeon Phi might fulfill a similar niche? In any case, HSA is ready for the consumer market, and with ARM and AMD supporting it, I see a decent to good future for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

*kicks in the door*

What's going on folks!?

wave2.gif Hello!

Quote:
Simply put: Intel vs AMD doesn't matter for a home user! Someone gaming on an 8350 or a 4770 couldn't tell you which was which while gaming, if they didn't already know. Same thing as you step down in tiers, arguably until you get down into the Celeron vs Sempron line.

I disagree. In general, this is true. However, there are so many crappily coded games out there that it isn't always true. GTA IV runs at a silky smooth 30FPS for me at best. When it gets up to 60FPS, it almost looks too smooth. Planetside 2, which I have been playing a lot, is running at overall medium settings. Framerates suck in big battles (~30FPS, which is tolerable), though I'm not sure if that's CPU limitations from calculating player attributes or GPU limitations from rendering more models. (I'll upgrade when Maxwell comes out I swear!) But things like BF4? An i7 Extreme Edition - 6 cores with 12 threads - is only negligibly better than an A8 - 2 modules with 4 cores. Anything with four or more threads is almost guaranteed to be GPU limited.
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Triumvirate
(20 items)
 
Osmium
(8 items)
 
For Sale: [FS] Z97 system: Xeon and RAM
$160 (USD) or best offer
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7-5775C ASUS Sabertooth Z97 Mark 2 Sapphire RX 480 (reference) MSI Low-Profile 750Ti 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Corsair Dominator Platinum - 2x8GB Crucial M500 - 960GB Samsung 840 - 250GB WD Scorpio Blue - 1TB 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingOS
ADATA SP900 - 64GB Scythe BIG Shuriken 2 Rev. B PNY Quadro 600 blower Windows 10 
MonitorMonitorMonitorKeyboard
ASUS VE247H - 1080p Gateway FPD1960 - 1280x1024 Samsung S20D300 - 900p, portrait Rosewill RK9000I - Cherry MX Blue 
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Rosewill HIVE 650W Riotoro CR1080 SteelSeries Rival 100 CyberPower 1500PFCLCD 
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