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post #51 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

Yeah, hyperthreading was an excellent development back when CPUs still had a single core. Dual core CPUs being mainstream is a very new development. HSA? You're right, nothing much is using it yet. I don't think we need to worry about hardware adoption though. Everything can do it. Intel? iGPUs. AMD? Most x86 chips shipped have iGPUs. Phones and tablets? SoCs. Server chips? Other than AMD's planned Kaveri-based solution, there is none. I guess something like a Xeon Phi might fulfill a similar niche? In any case, HSA is ready for the consumer market, and with ARM and AMD supporting it, I see a decent to good future for it.
wave2.gif Hello!
I disagree. In general, this is true. However, there are so many crappily coded games out there that it isn't always true. GTA IV runs at a silky smooth 30FPS for me at best. When it gets up to 60FPS, it almost looks too smooth. Planetside 2, which I have been playing a lot, is running at overall medium settings. Framerates suck in big battles (~30FPS, which is tolerable), though I'm not sure if that's CPU limitations from calculating player attributes or GPU limitations from rendering more models. (I'll upgrade when Maxwell comes out I swear!) But things like BF4? An i7 Extreme Edition - 6 cores with 12 threads - is only negligibly better than an A8 - 2 modules with 4 cores. Anything with four or more threads is almost guaranteed to be GPU limited.

I think ctrl-f is the built in fps counter for planet side, look in your key bindings. It'll also tell you if your CPU or GPU bound at any given time.
4770k at stock doesn't go below 55 streaming with OBS at 720p. That right in a biodome, maxed out 1080p. Gtx770 oc'd.
I'll test today at 4.5ghz, no streaming.


I had an AMD 1045t 3.0ghz before this...
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post #52 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caldeio View Post

I think ctrl-f is the built in fps counter for planet side, look in your key bindings. It'll also tell you if your CPU or GPU bound at any given time.
4770k at stock doesn't go below 55 streaming with OBS at 720p. That right in a biodome, maxed out 1080p. Gtx770 oc'd.
I'll test today at 4.5ghz, no streaming.


I had an AMD 1045t 3.0ghz before this...

The C2Q and Phenom cores I found tended to struggle when you introduce streaming and recording in general.
I had a C2Q 9550 at 3.8Ghz and I had huge issues with recording at high bit rates, specifically STALKER as my example. I don't know if it was overall design or specific to the CPU's, ie north bridge and FSBUS.

The newest architectures in both AMD and Intel have no problems at all with streaming and recording, with most of the limitations now on the GPU and Storage device write bandwidth, or in the case of streaming the upload speed of the internet connection.

The improvements to both sides in centralizing the pathways of processing has been hugely beneficial in general.
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post #53 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caldeio View Post

I think ctrl-f is the built in fps counter for planet side, look in your key bindings. It'll also tell you if your CPU or GPU bound at any given time.
4770k at stock doesn't go below 55 streaming with OBS at 720p. That right in a biodome, maxed out 1080p. Gtx770 oc'd.
I'll test today at 4.5ghz, no streaming.

Alt+F, thanks. I had been using FRAPS. So there's nobody online in the middle of the afternoon on a Friday, but I was getting, on mostly high settings with particle effects, shadows, and lighting on medium, about 50-70FPS, GPU limited, and it would occasionally spike to 100+FPS CPU limited. It might not help that render distance is at its maximum, but this isn't too challenging to run, even with a low-end 1GB GPU and AMD FX.

The general consensus is that Thuban and Vishera aren't very different in most scenarios. Vishera has an edge in some, especially overclocking potential, but it's a sidegrade rather than an upgrade.
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post #54 of 99
Guys talking about Planet Side 2 did you not get the memo they went multi threaded and also started doing multi threaded rendering I actually started a thread on this a while back Planet Side 2 is no longer the dog it used to be and plays much better with multi core CPU's. http://www.overclock.net/t/1441458/planetside-2-multi-threaded-rendering-and-better-multi-threading#post_21323052 I want to say this Multi Threaded rendering is a huge deal and makes huge leaps in performance vs the old way of using 1-2 core to do so and also using same cores for game itself. The facts of multi threaded rendering brings much better core usage considering they can use a small portion of any available core VS trying to use same cores being used for main game itself and such . Facts are by spreading the load out to eleviate amount of stress per core allows for less impact on other tasks going on running the game itself and such meening much more fluid performance overall.

I will link the Civilization V testing with multi threaded rendering it is a good read but to sum it up offered around 200% performance increase by just using multi threaded rendering http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=31520674&postcount=28 I also want to point out civ V had option to enable multi threaded rendering but didn't do so by default so most have not seen this performance that is actually built into the game but requires drivers to enable it which doesn't happen by default takes tweaking and messing with files to enable it properly.

This is a major thing to read from the civ V link I linked ::::: With high-end GPUs performance damn near doubled at lower resolutions. Civ V was in fact CPU limited - it was CPU limited because it was only able to use a single thread to assemble its contexts, and that thread was maxing out the single CPU core it could use. This is why drivers played such a big part in Civ V's performance, because how drivers handled D3D11 contexts was the key to unlocking Civ V's performance.

what they are saying is once they enabled multi threaded rendering the game doubled its performance where it had previously been heavily CPU limited / bottlenecked so again Multi Threaded Rendering makes a huge performance difference by itself add better multi threading all around and we would have the dog whipped and in shape and ready to game on almost any multicore CPU. This applies to nearly all games they could take advantage of much better performance if these are implimented properly these next gen consoles are bringing much better multithreading and multi threaded rendering to the table from the start unlike past consoles remember 90% of games are first done for console then ported to PC so this can greatly benefit us the PC gamers. Facts are our current gen consoles are now 8 cores and x86 and are designed from start for multi threading and multi threaded rendering this can and will flow over into future game releases meening much better performance for us multi core CPU users.


I want to point out only a handfull of games have truly brought multi threaded rendering to table but ones that did offered massive performance increases when it was enabled and that is without even adding proper all around multi threading for multi core CPU's.
Edited by rickcooperjr - 4/7/14 at 9:21am
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post #55 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickcooperjr View Post

Guys talking about Planet Side 2 did you not get the memo they went multi threaded and also started doing multi threaded rendering I actually started a thread on this a while back Planet Side 2 is no longer the dog it used to be and plays much better with multi core CPU's. http://www.overclock.net/t/1441458/planetside-2-multi-threaded-rendering-and-better-multi-threading#post_21323052 I want to say this Multi Threaded rendering is a huge deal and makes huge leaps in performance vs the old way of using 1-2 core to do so and also using same cores for game itself. The facts of multi threaded rendering brings much better core usage considering they can use a small portion of any available core VS trying to use same cores being used for main game itself and such . Facts are by spreading the load out to eleviate amount of stress per core allows for less impact on other tasks going on running the game itself and such meening much more fluid performance overall.

I will link the Civilization V testing with multi threaded rendering it is a good read but to sum it up offered around 200% performance increase by just using multi threaded rendering http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=31520674&postcount=28 I also want to point out civ V had option to enable multi threaded rendering but didn't do so by default so most have not seen this performance that is actually built into the game but requires drivers to enable it which doesn't happen by default takes tweaking and messing with files to enable it properly.

This is a major thing to read from the civ V link I linked ::::: With high-end GPUs performance damn near doubled at lower resolutions. Civ V was in fact CPU limited - it was CPU limited because it was only able to use a single thread to assemble its contexts, and that thread was maxing out the single CPU core it could use. This is why drivers played such a big part in Civ V's performance, because how drivers handled D3D11 contexts was the key to unlocking Civ V's performance.

what they are saying is once they enabled multi threaded rendering the game doubled its performance where it had previously been heavily CPU limited / bottlenecked so again Multi Threaded Rendering makes a huge performance difference by itself add better multi threading all around and we would have the dog whipped and in shape and ready to game on almost any multicore CPU. This applies to nearly all games they could take advantage of much better performance if these are implimented properly these next gen consoles are bringing much better multithreading and multi threaded rendering to the table from the start unlike past consoles remember 90% of games are first done for console then ported to PC so this can greatly benefit us the PC gamers.


I want to point out only a handfull of games have truly brought multi threaded rendering to table but ones that did offered massive performance increases when it was enabled and that is without even adding proper all around multi threading for multi core CPU's.
I got the memo, I played since beta.
I'm not sure what this has to do with Intel vs amd? In the future when all games are multithreaded, the difference between Intel and amd might be different but right now Intel has the stronger core vs more cores. I have 4770k for that reason, I wanted the hyperthreading for the future when this happens but wanted the stronger Intel core. No i5 for me.

I also use/learning solidworks. I render at 4k in the most detail I can do. For this kind of work, an amd CPU would of been ok I've heard.
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post #56 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caldeio View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickcooperjr View Post

Guys talking about Planet Side 2 did you not get the memo they went multi threaded and also started doing multi threaded rendering I actually started a thread on this a while back Planet Side 2 is no longer the dog it used to be and plays much better with multi core CPU's. http://www.overclock.net/t/1441458/planetside-2-multi-threaded-rendering-and-better-multi-threading#post_21323052 I want to say this Multi Threaded rendering is a huge deal and makes huge leaps in performance vs the old way of using 1-2 core to do so and also using same cores for game itself. The facts of multi threaded rendering brings much better core usage considering they can use a small portion of any available core VS trying to use same cores being used for main game itself and such . Facts are by spreading the load out to eleviate amount of stress per core allows for less impact on other tasks going on running the game itself and such meening much more fluid performance overall.

I will link the Civilization V testing with multi threaded rendering it is a good read but to sum it up offered around 200% performance increase by just using multi threaded rendering http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=31520674&postcount=28 I also want to point out civ V had option to enable multi threaded rendering but didn't do so by default so most have not seen this performance that is actually built into the game but requires drivers to enable it which doesn't happen by default takes tweaking and messing with files to enable it properly.


This is a major thing to read from the civ V link I linked ::::: With high-end GPUs performance damn near doubled at lower resolutions. Civ V was in fact CPU limited - it was CPU limited because it was only able to use a single thread to assemble its contexts, and that thread was maxing out the single CPU core it could use. This is why drivers played such a big part in Civ V's performance, because how drivers handled D3D11 contexts was the key to unlocking Civ V's performance.

what they are saying is once they enabled multi threaded rendering the game doubled its performance where it had previously been heavily CPU limited / bottlenecked so again Multi Threaded Rendering makes a huge performance difference by itself add better multi threading all around and we would have the dog whipped and in shape and ready to game on almost any multicore CPU. This applies to nearly all games they could take advantage of much better performance if these are implimented properly these next gen consoles are bringing much better multithreading and multi threaded rendering to the table from the start unlike past consoles remember 90% of games are first done for console then ported to PC so this can greatly benefit us the PC gamers.


I want to point out only a handfull of games have truly brought multi threaded rendering to table but ones that did offered massive performance increases when it was enabled and that is without even adding proper all around multi threading for multi core CPU's.
I got the memo, I played since beta.
I'm not sure what this has to do with Intel vs amd? In the future when all games are multithreaded, the difference between Intel and amd might be different but right now Intel has the stronger core vs more cores. I have 4770k for that reason, I wanted the hyperthreading for the future when this happens but wanted the stronger Intel core. No i5 for me.

I also use/learning solidworks. I render at 4k in the most detail I can do. For this kind of work, an amd CPU would of been ok I've heard.

The reason it matters is it eleviates much of the gaming issues involved with AMD vs Intel and puts them more on even playing field and nobody has brought these facts up and they are very relevant to the conversation and OP's original question because of above mentioned facts and the future of gaming is fastly moving that direction. Single core performance or IPC will not be so much of a factor in future games because of the above facts meening both AMD and Intel will perform similar for theyre performance tiers basically no longer will there be as big of a difference between similar tiered CPU's performance wise in games.

I also want to say what do you think DX12 and Mantle do Multi threading and Multi threaded rendering is main advancement in these 2 API's hince again future of gaming so the before mentioned things are very relevant.

These don't apply in the software portion of the conversation but on future game side yes they do software like premier and such all depend on instruction set and the compilers used for instance any using the dirty Intel compilers will benefit Intel CPU's by giving them optimal instruction set and cripple AMD CPU's by forcing AMD to use inferior instruction sets even though the AMD CPU supports same instruction set as the Intel CPU does. Be aware Intel compilers are #1 used compiler for software / benchmarks / game development so them giving AMD CPU's crappy instruction sets while giving Intel CPU's proper ones is very bad and not right honestly and it also skews the way consumers see performance of any brand / model of CPU.

PLZ read this and you might understand the Intel compiler issue still going on till this day open page and scroll down till you see green background and read http://www.agner.org/optimize/blog/read.php?i=49 be aware that goes all the way to 5/21/2013 and Intel compilers are still doing this till this day so it is also very relevant to the conversation also it plays a huge factor in in how AMD CPU's perform in benchmarks and alot of software and even alot of games.

A very good thread to read to understand the issue about the dirty Intel compiler issue http://www.overclock.net/t/1167757/who-doesnt-think-intels-compiler-disables-amd-cpu

I want to say this many benchmark software got in trouble about this and a few faced legal issues over it Cinebench is one of them but in end none were forced to fix issue and Intel only had to offer to pay Dev's to fix issue but none really opted to fix the issue so we still are dealing with this issue and will be for a longtime http://sharikou.blogspot.com/2009/12/ftc-accuses-intel-of-rigging-benchmarks.html or watch this it is very informative http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4et7kDGSRfc&t=226


Caldeio I want to say this you opened that can of worms so I put the facts out there how it affects things in many ways and also how other major things are affecting them.
Edited by rickcooperjr - 4/7/14 at 11:16am
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post #57 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickcooperjr View Post

*wall o' text*

PS2 is multithreaded now, but it doesn't run as well as it should. And yes, multithreading, especially for console ports, will take off. This is a guarantee. Devs are moving from PowerPC (awesome) and Cell (also awesome) to low-clocked (half as fast as the ~3GHz chips) x86 (not as powerful as the others but common IIRC) AMD (not as good as Intel) little core (not nearly as good as big core). Essentially, these are K8 chips launched in 2003 but with eight cores. Not too next-gen. I decided on AMD despite knowing singlethread comparatively sucks because of the additional cores and how slow the console CPUs are. DX12 and Mantle are emphasizing more core usage, and I believe so are new game engines.

I think we're in some very interesting times. AMD can't compete with Intel directly. I know it, you know it, Intel knows it, and especially AMD knows it. So what do they do? SoCs. I hope big core sticks around, but they might move on to little core exclusively and further development of stuff like HSA that allows effective parallel computing, both between cores and between the CPU and GPU. Kaveri is pretty impressive, but I can't wait for Excavator and Carrizo. At the same time, Intel isn't doing anything that directly benefits us. But look at Haswell! 10% faster than Sandy Bridge and uses so much less power. The future of consumer electronics is mobile, and now Intel's competition is ARM, not AMD.
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post #58 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMKR View Post

Then how come an 4670 performs better than fx8xxx? Is it just due to the types of programs running on benchmarks?
Cuz it seems like the standard for gaming is either a fx8320/8350 or a 4670. U would think the 8 core would be better than the 4core

When you have 8 cores and each one is about 1/2 as fast each core on the 4670k your still slower.
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post #59 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickcooperjr View Post

*wall o' text*

PS2 is multithreaded now, but it doesn't run as well as it should. And yes, multithreading, especially for console ports, will take off. This is a guarantee. Devs are moving from PowerPC (awesome) and Cell (also awesome) to low-clocked (half as fast as the ~3GHz chips) x86 (not as powerful as the others but common IIRC) AMD (not as good as Intel) little core (not nearly as good as big core). Essentially, these are K8 chips launched in 2003 but with eight cores. Not too next-gen. I decided on AMD despite knowing singlethread comparatively sucks because of the additional cores and how slow the console CPUs are. DX12 and Mantle are emphasizing more core usage, and I believe so are new game engines.

I think we're in some very interesting times. AMD can't compete with Intel directly. I know it, you know it, Intel knows it, and especially AMD knows it. So what do they do? SoCs. I hope big core sticks around, but they might move on to little core exclusively and further development of stuff like HSA that allows effective parallel computing, both between cores and between the CPU and GPU. Kaveri is pretty impressive, but I can't wait for Excavator and Carrizo. At the same time, Intel isn't doing anything that directly benefits us. But look at Haswell! 10% faster than Sandy Bridge and uses so much less power. The future of consumer electronics is mobile, and now Intel's competition is ARM, not AMD.


I want to point out ARM and AMD are now working together for servers and even mobile devices like phones and tablets

server http://www.anandtech.com/show/7724/it-begins-amd-announces-its-first-arm-based-server-soc-64bit8core-opteron-a1100 http://www.pcworld.com/article/2092680/amd-debuts-first-arm-processor.html

mobile http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2013/12/9/amd-working-on-arm-socs-for-consumer-products.aspx http://liliputing.com/2013/09/amds-first-arm-based-chip-tablets-coming-2014.html http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2418121,00.asp http://www.phonearena.com/news/AMD-looking-to-produce-ARM-based-chips---is-mobile-in-its-future_id36116

This will drastically put a bind on Intel going into mobile market which was path they were betting on and counting on add to it AMD is working with graphene http://www.graphenetracker.com/amd-patents-graphene-for-3d-electronics/ and graphene is the future http://wccftech.com/graphene-transistors-427-ghz/ http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/175727-ibm-builds-graphene-chip-thats-10000-times-faster-using-standard-cmos-processes
Edited by rickcooperjr - 4/7/14 at 11:45am
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post #60 of 99
Yup. Intel basically got locked out of the mobile market. There are some Haswell and Atom tablets, but that's it. Apple and Samsung make their own stuff in-house, and others are using Qualcomm and Samsung. I'm really glad that their monopoly is being broken up. Monopolies suck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShortySmalls View Post

When you have 8 cores and each one is about 1/2 as fast each core on the 4670k your still slower.

I don't think Piledriver is that bad comparatively, but it ain't great.
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