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Do you think 4K will be the end of pixel density? - Page 4

post #31 of 48

I disagree with the article. The outright best interpretation of what you can see and not see is shown to Most of us every day. You see it when you look in your bathroom mirror. The perfect real-time Hologram a simple Flat glass mirror which we all have. (which could of course be of many types).

 

When TV's and Monitors start having the outright clarity of a Mirror to receive & transmit near perfect electromagnetic frequency light "data" with the density and lack of blemish or artifact that a mirror does, then I'll say perfection has been reached. Basically when you cannot see pixels anymore.

 

Agreed only one part of this is density,..and there's many other facets, ... Just Many lol ( The 2D on tv's vs a Mirror 3D receiving and transmitting at all angles simultaneously, the amount of data is staggering if one could transform that to digital. but that's another discussion altogether.

 

But to say 4K is it. Hardly.

 

 

Note: If one could freeze a mirror's "perfect" reflection....Billionaire. 

post #32 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepor View Post

It's probably not important that you can't be happy with a single graphics card on 4K currently. The screens are currently very expensive so it feels alright that you need to pay a lot for graphics cards. There's still time for AMD and NVIDIA to get it to run fine with a moderately priced single graphics card before the price of 4K screens comes down to what 1080p screens are today.

I also think benchmarks might be a little misleading because reviewers always test with best possible settings and antialiasing put to the same level that they use for 1080p, but I guess you don't need that amount of AA on 4K. That said, the current graphics cards don't seem to have the FPS drop that much when enabling something like 4xMSAA so reviewing like that might actually be fine?
4x MSAA can give you a pretty decent performance hit compared to no AA or FXAA.
See these links for a comparison:
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/GPU14/808
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/GPU14/807
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post #33 of 48
A lot of you aren't taking into the fact the fundamental factors that would change one's perception of a computer monitor. How far away are they standing (you'd need some quantitative data regarding the average distance someone looks at their monitor from)?. Are the lighting conditions a) Good and b) unanimous? Is the content one is viewing the same, with the same settings on all mediums (monitor, PC)? Are the viewer/tester's eyes 20/20? Unless all of these things can be monitored definitively in controlled environments, it's pretty hard to discuss the topic, especially considering the fidelity of the monitors at hand.

2cents.gif
Edited by PolyMorphist - 4/3/14 at 10:42am
post #34 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just a nickname View Post

Contrast (vision), the difference in color and light between parts of an image (wikipedia def.).
There can be higher variation of light intensity and color if you have more pixel per unit of length.
Every pixel emit light, so if you have more pixels, you can produce more light per length unit.

I wonder how it has nothing to do with brightness or contrast...?

The variation in light intensity and color is at the pixel level.

If a single pixel group capable is capable of 98% RGB gamut, would 10 million of these result in increase color space?

For LCDs, the brightness is from the backlight and the darkness is from the pixel blocking the light. Would increasing pixels increase the output of the backlight? Would increasing the number of pixels increase how much light each individual pixel can block? If a pixel can only block 98% of the light...... 3M, 6M, 12M of the same pixels would still only block 98% of the light.
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post #35 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PolyMorphist View Post

A lot of you aren't taking into the fact the fundamental factors that would change one's perception of a computer monitor. How far away are they standing (you'd need some quantitative data regarding the average distance someone looks at their monitor from)?. Are the lighting conditions a) Good and b) unanimous? Is the content one is viewing the same, with the same settings on all mediums (monitor, PC)? Are the viewer/tester's eyes 20/20? Unless all of these things can be controlled definitively in controlled environments, it's pretty hard to discuss the topic, especially considering the fidelity of the monitors at hand.

2cents.gif

Do you have a science degree because it seems like it? I have been out of school for a while and I completely forgot about having to make a standardized, quantitative experimental design. After 4K, tech companies are not just going to be able to go on pixel density alone because most people will be fine with 4K forever. I know that because I know a lot of people who don't even care that much about 4K right now. It is not a big step up like 480 to 1080p was, or even 720p. I have a friend who works at Best Buy who says that 4K is not worth the money right now. And if people are currently having trouble finding the value in 4K, then when 8K or above comes out, I know that unless they do something drastic to other aspects of the display, they are going to lose a lot of money. I say all of this because psychological research is going to be very important to LG, Samsung, and Sony who usually lead the market with the new tech. It will cost them much less to come together and fund independent research studies that look at all of the quantitative and qualitative variables. If they were to just take a gamble and say, "Ok, 8K it is then!" they would be taking an unnecessary risk.

I have thought about some stuff that they might want to look at without using an experimental design and then some stuff using an experimental design.

First, they can use surveys. They can ask what type of TV people have, how far away they sit, how many lights they have in the room, the type and approximate wattage of the light bulbs in the house, and how high the TV sits and whether it is mounted or on a stand.

Then for an experiment, they can have a 1 group design. They would not need a control. They can show each group (and then each person individually so as to not be influenced by the group) a series of videos in 720p, 1080p, 4K, and 8K. Then they use different upscaled and downscaled video on each display.

This may sound like too much but this sort of research happens all the time in the tech industry, especially with video/audio companies. And doing surveys and research like this many hundreds of times across the country would be the smart thing to do and could end up costing them a lot less money than if they were to take that 4K or 8K gamble. I know that I would not buy anything above 4K since I wear thick glasses and I can barely tell the difference between 720p and 1080p sitting 15 feet from my TV.

And as for gaming, I don't think they should be preoccupied with hurrying up with 4K gaming. I am getting a PS4 for Batman Arkham Knight, Destiny, Uncharted, if they ever release it, and Infamous. Sony said that they will not be doing 4K gaming this generation. I am fine with this. Right now PC games need a semi decent graphics card to run at 1080p at 60 frames. There is no reason for me to get a 4K TV. I won't be able to take advantage of it. There is no native 4K media except for the demo video at the store. They will need to find a way to fit 4K on a Blu Ray disc because I refuse to stream or download movies because of the quality of Blu Rays. Plus, my cable company will need to start using 1080p for their broadcasts. Right now Charter Communications uses compressed 720p. YUCK! Even Vudu uses too much compression in their HDX movies. If you are getting a 4K TV, then Blu Ray is the only way to go I think. And since a Blu Ray can only hold 50 GB of data, then they will need to either use 2 discs, which I am fine with, or find an optical technology that surpasses Blu Ray. And someone please testify to the awesomeness of Blu Rays because I don't want to feel alone here.

When games can be easily run on 4K with a medium class graphics card at 60 FPS, and all of those other conditions are met, then maybe I will look at upgrading to a 4K 3D TV from LG if Best Buy has a huge sale and I can sell my 47" 1080p 3D TV. Until then, LG is not going to make money off of me for their 4K TVs. And I do not think I am being unreasonable here. I think many people do not want to buy 4K until there is a decent sized library of native 4K media and 4K gaming is easily affordable.
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post #36 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thready View Post

Do you have a science degree because it seems like it? I have been out of school for a while and I completely forgot about having to make a standardized, quantitative experimental design. After 4K, tech companies are not just going to be able to go on pixel density alone because most people will be fine with 4K forever. I know that because I know a lot of people who don't even care that much about 4K right now. It is not a big step up like 480 to 1080p was, or even 720p. I have a friend who works at Best Buy who says that 4K is not worth the money right now. And if people are currently having trouble finding the value in 4K, then when 8K or above comes out, I know that unless they do something drastic to other aspects of the display, they are going to lose a lot of money. I say all of this because psychological research is going to be very important to LG, Samsung, and Sony who usually lead the market with the new tech. It will cost them much less to come together and fund independent research studies that look at all of the quantitative and qualitative variables. If they were to just take a gamble and say, "Ok, 8K it is then!" they would be taking an unnecessary risk.

I have thought about some stuff that they might want to look at without using an experimental design and then some stuff using an experimental design.

First, they can use surveys. They can ask what type of TV people have, how far away they sit, how many lights they have in the room, the type and approximate wattage of the light bulbs in the house, and how high the TV sits and whether it is mounted or on a stand.

Then for an experiment, they can have a 1 group design. They would not need a control. They can show each group (and then each person individually so as to not be influenced by the group) a series of videos in 720p, 1080p, 4K, and 8K. Then they use different upscaled and downscaled video on each display.

This may sound like too much but this sort of research happens all the time in the tech industry, especially with video/audio companies. And doing surveys and research like this many hundreds of times across the country would be the smart thing to do and could end up costing them a lot less money than if they were to take that 4K or 8K gamble. I know that I would not buy anything above 4K since I wear thick glasses and I can barely tell the difference between 720p and 1080p sitting 15 feet from my TV.

And as for gaming, I don't think they should be preoccupied with hurrying up with 4K gaming. I am getting a PS4 for Batman Arkham Knight, Destiny, Uncharted, if they ever release it, and Infamous. Sony said that they will not be doing 4K gaming this generation. I am fine with this. Right now PC games need a semi decent graphics card to run at 1080p at 60 frames. There is no reason for me to get a 4K TV. I won't be able to take advantage of it. There is no native 4K media except for the demo video at the store. They will need to find a way to fit 4K on a Blu Ray disc because I refuse to stream or download movies because of the quality of Blu Rays. Plus, my cable company will need to start using 1080p for their broadcasts. Right now Charter Communications uses compressed 720p. YUCK! Even Vudu uses too much compression in their HDX movies. If you are getting a 4K TV, then Blu Ray is the only way to go I think. And since a Blu Ray can only hold 50 GB of data, then they will need to either use 2 discs, which I am fine with, or find an optical technology that surpasses Blu Ray. And someone please testify to the awesomeness of Blu Rays because I don't want to feel alone here.

When games can be easily run on 4K with a medium class graphics card at 60 FPS, and all of those other conditions are met, then maybe I will look at upgrading to a 4K 3D TV from LG if Best Buy has a huge sale and I can sell my 47" 1080p 3D TV. Until then, LG is not going to make money off of me for their 4K TVs. And I do not think I am being unreasonable here. I think many people do not want to buy 4K until there is a decent sized library of native 4K media and 4K gaming is easily affordable.

-This-

Luckily for the tech companies trying to push 4K (i.e. every tech company), 4K is simply another step to the exponential increase in screen resolution. Unlike other gimmicky things like 3D and surround gaming (arguable), 4K will someday become the norm in our everyday lives of viewing content whether we like it or not. When will 4K become the 'norm'? That's another topic that'll require discussion. For now at least, 4K is expensive, impractical and, well, expensive. Like you said, until I can play X game at 4K without the need for a four-figure GPU, until I can view everything on Neflix at 4K, until my ISP can provide adequate speeds for me to stream and download 4K, it will simply be something only a handful of us can utilize.
BTW no degree as of yet - I'm only 15 ;D)

Oh, and regarding the actual question of the thread:

"Do you think 4K will be the end of pixel density?". Answer is no. We will keep on increasing our powers of 2 until someone invents something that will change displays; Sharp's 'RGBy' attempt was only building of an established technology. Until there's something altogether different, nothing will change.
Edited by PolyMorphist - 4/3/14 at 11:03am
post #37 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PolyMorphist View Post

-This-

Luckily for the tech companies trying to push 4K (i.e. every tech company), 4K is simply another step to the exponential increase in screen resolution. Unlike other gimmicky things like 3D and surround gaming (arguable), 4K will someday become the norm in our everyday lives of viewing content whether we like it or not. When will 4K become the 'norm'? That's another topic that'll require discussion. For now at least, 4K is expensive, impractical and, well, expensive. Like you said, until I can play X game at 4K without the need for a four-figure GPU, until I can view everything on Neflix at 4K, until my ISP can provide adequate speeds for me to stream and download 4K, it will simply be something only a handful of us can utilize.
BTW no degree as of yet - I'm only 15 ;D)

Oh, and regarding the actual question of the thread:

"Do you think 4K will be the end of pixel density?". Answer is no. We will keep on increasing our powers of 2 until someone invents something that will change displays; Sharp's 'RGBy' attempt was only building of an established technology. Until there's something altogether different, nothing will change.

well... I like 3D... guiltysmiley.gif

And I must have meant 8K when I said 16K. I know that they go in powers of 4 since 4K is 4 times the density of 1080p. I know 4K measures vertical lines and 1080p measures horizontal. When I said 16K I think that I was thinking of 8K I don't know how I missed this. I am semi-competent at math.worriedsmiley.gif
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post #38 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thready View Post

well... I like 3D... guiltysmiley.gif

And I must have meant 8K when I said 16K. I know that they go in powers of 4 since 4K is 4 times the density of 1080p. I know 4K measures vertical lines and 1080p measures horizontal. When I said 16K I think that I was thinking of 8K I don't know how I missed this. I am semi-competent at math.worriedsmiley.gif

Yep, 1080p is basically 2K. The names are actually a bit off as it was originally used for film and there the resolution was slightly larger horizontally, 2K = 2048x1080 instead of 1920x1080, 4K was 4096x2160 instead of 3840x2160.
post #39 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by deepor View Post

Yep, 1080p is basically 2K. The names are actually a bit off as it was originally used for film and there the resolution was slightly larger horizontally, 2K = 2048x1080 instead of 1920x1080, 4K was 4096x2160 instead of 3840x2160.

Yeah, the nomenclature is all messed up due to marketing.

I love it when people use to think "HD" was something new a few years ago..... Computer monitors have been "HD" for well over almost two decades.
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post #40 of 48
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post

Yeah, the nomenclature is all messed up due to marketing.

I love it when people use to think "HD" was something new a few years ago..... Computer monitors have been "HD" for well over almost two decades.

Nothing good existed until I got money to buy it. Until then, technology was just dumb stuff for dumb people who had dumb money that I didn't have. hmmsmiley02.gif

And I have the same attitude about 4K. 4K is the stupidest invention out there that costs too much money and only idiots like it.

fast forward 3 years...

Oh man this 4K thing is AWESOME!

My mom has the same attitude. She had a 17 year old fat TV that weighed as much as a car, and she said, "That high definition is for you kids" and then I walked in with a 47 inch HDTV under my arm, and she saw how light it was and how big it was and she said, "Why didn't we do this years ago?"
Edited by Thready - 4/3/14 at 6:25pm
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