Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Software News › [//build 2014/Youtube] Microsoft Cloud Gaming Prototype (you definitely wanna see this)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

[//build 2014/Youtube] Microsoft Cloud Gaming Prototype (you definitely wanna see this) - Page 8

post #71 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post

You actually think business is going to buy the millions of GPUs needed to run everyone's games for them? And upgrade them? You think games will stay $60, and not be subscription based for what level of detail you want? Even better, you don't think the 50ms ping to even a nearby datacenter would be a problem? Not to mention, as someone said in the youtube comment, this is much more likely to be done in multiplayer servers where they run the computation once for 60+ people, not per-person.

No... Talking, document handling, video streaming, other basics that are not latency dependant will, and have already started to, go cloud based. But your head is with those documents if you think games will be server side and actually run well enough to replace local.

Also, businesses have not "moved to the cloud", they make their own clouds. Which you can do too, all on your own. Windows 8 Pro comes with Hyper-V. Hyper-V is capable of passing GPU resources to the VM. RemoteFX (another Win8 feature) seriously upgrades RDP for minimal latency and even GPU frame encoding. You want to make a cloud, you can. Make one big badass rig, throw in a bunch of GPUs, pay for the needed licenes for the VMs, and have a bunch of <10w computers strapped to the back of monitors RDP in to the VMs.

Tada, you have a gaming cloud. Congradulations.

Seriously, I swear people don't even know what the term "cloud" means... Thinking businesses are moving to the cloud... That's a good joke.
Work PC
(4 items)
 
Home PC
(4 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
4770k Asus SABERTOOTH Z87 290 16 trident  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
8350 gigabyte 990fxa 660 16gb trident 
  hide details  
Reply
Work PC
(4 items)
 
Home PC
(4 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
4770k Asus SABERTOOTH Z87 290 16 trident  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
8350 gigabyte 990fxa 660 16gb trident 
  hide details  
Reply
post #72 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caples View Post

But you're straight up wrong.

If they're running this on a handful of "high-end" machines, which most people consider to be an i5 and something like a 290 or a 780, then should not 32 consoles be able to spread out the computations among themselves to get at least similar results?

Neither of us have intricate knowledge of the subject so I suggest you stop making a fool of yourself by trying to blanket dump on this. I'm simply maintaining my optimism that this will turn out to be a good thing for console gamers.

I'm more interested in these questions he raised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndroidVageta View Post

I don't see a single thing here that changes my mind on "cloud computing".

What were the system specs used here?What was the connection speed and latency? What were they using server side? Can they provide that for millions of users at the same time? How will people with slow or crappy internet (e.g. most people)? Etc etc etc...

None of this has been answered nor will it be answered.

This was no different then Nvidia showing off some Physx demo. "Oh look! 500,000 particles Physx!"...yeah...but they fail to mention it's running on quad Titans at 30FPS with literally nothing else going on other than the Physx effects.

It's the exact same thing here.

You kind of just chose the first question he asked, but really the others are probably more legitimate concerns.
Considering the fact that this was advertised as a way to push a "few" calculations to the cloud, the ability of the client hardware to run the assumed majority of the game is a little important. I suppose it could be possible that the lower the client system specs, the more goes to the cloud. This would of course be relevant because the amount of calculations the server side is computing would greatly impact speed (just like any calculation on any system). Still, my priority concerns are the four later questions compared to the first earlier question.

Not that it matters I suppose as I could never verify this, but I didn't even think of this as an Xbox v PS thing until I saw it in the comments here, which is admittedly silly considering the text in the first post. Honestly, I'm just thinking about this as it applies to games in general since the mindset has a high probability of crossing over to other platforms. I also don't own an XB1 or PS4 if that helps my credibility any.
Edited by MR_Plow - 4/4/14 at 5:00pm
post #73 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndroidVageta View Post

This is one of my main issues with this stuff.

MS claimed that the cloud could do something like 3x the performance for every X1 owner...HOW??? When you have millions of X1 gamers playing games at the same time you'd have to have a server farm the size of Wisconsin to be able to do so. How, exactly, does MS expect to provide 3x the X1 power for EVERY user? That just doesn't make sense computational wise, money wise, etc.

I just don't buy it. I'd love to be proven wrong...but even if, say, the X1 matches the PS4's performance via cloud...that's 384 GPU cores MORE per X1 user. That's millions of R7 250's...one per person. How would that be possible? How is that financially feasible?

Sigh...I just call B.S. and MS has done absolutely nothing to prove anyone wrong (or right for that matter).
I think its feasible in the future, but disagree with giving an arbitrary power multiplication. That all depends how the tech is used. This just shows physics which is pretty complex. I have a feeling that the first step to cloud gaming is moving things such as dialogue files to a streamed service. Rendering physics like this is pretty far off for mass use even if it is toned down during high loads.

Cloud based gaming isn't anywhere near a reality.. It was the original design of the Xbox One to implement this in the future. People didn't like that and MS had to back off of it because good internet isn't readily accessible everywhere. Until then I really don't see this catching on, regardless of what latency and server demand tech like this requires.
Hooptie
(18 items)
 
Ghetto Jemima
(14 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 4770k Gigabyte GA-Z87X-UD4H EVGA GTX 660 8GB Gskill Sniper Series 1866 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
250GB Samsung 840 SSD 500GB WD Green 2TB Seagate Barracuda  Thermaltake Frio 
OSMonitorMonitorMonitor
Windows 8.1 ASUS 24" LED ASUS 21.5" LCD crap dell 4:3 LCD 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Ducky Shine 3 White LED Cherry MX Blue Corsair HX750 Corsair Carbide 200R Logitech G700 
Mouse PadAudio
Mionix Sargas 320 Asus Xonar DGX 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
E7300 @ 3.4 Gigabyte GA-73PVM-S2H XFX 5770 4GB DDR2 800 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
500 GB Windows 7 Pro 21.5" Asus Gigabyte Aivia Osmium 
MouseMouse PadAudio
Logitech G400 $5 Cloth pad Philips O'neal Stretch Headphones 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i5 2500k 4.7 1.375v EVGA P67 SLI Micro EVGA GTX 660 8GB G.Skill Sniper Series 1866 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Samsung 840 250 GB SSD 2TB Seagate Barracuda 500 GB WD  Thermaltake Frio 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Ultimate 24" LED ASUS + 21.5" ASUS Ducky Shine 3 Cherry MX Blue White LED Corsair HX750 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Corsair Carbide Series 200R Logitech G700 Mionix Sargas 320 Philips O'neill Stretch Headphones 
AudioAudio
ASUS Xonar DGX Zalman Clip on mic  
  hide details  
Reply
Hooptie
(18 items)
 
Ghetto Jemima
(14 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 4770k Gigabyte GA-Z87X-UD4H EVGA GTX 660 8GB Gskill Sniper Series 1866 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
250GB Samsung 840 SSD 500GB WD Green 2TB Seagate Barracuda  Thermaltake Frio 
OSMonitorMonitorMonitor
Windows 8.1 ASUS 24" LED ASUS 21.5" LCD crap dell 4:3 LCD 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Ducky Shine 3 White LED Cherry MX Blue Corsair HX750 Corsair Carbide 200R Logitech G700 
Mouse PadAudio
Mionix Sargas 320 Asus Xonar DGX 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
E7300 @ 3.4 Gigabyte GA-73PVM-S2H XFX 5770 4GB DDR2 800 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
500 GB Windows 7 Pro 21.5" Asus Gigabyte Aivia Osmium 
MouseMouse PadAudio
Logitech G400 $5 Cloth pad Philips O'neal Stretch Headphones 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i5 2500k 4.7 1.375v EVGA P67 SLI Micro EVGA GTX 660 8GB G.Skill Sniper Series 1866 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Samsung 840 250 GB SSD 2TB Seagate Barracuda 500 GB WD  Thermaltake Frio 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Ultimate 24" LED ASUS + 21.5" ASUS Ducky Shine 3 Cherry MX Blue White LED Corsair HX750 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Corsair Carbide Series 200R Logitech G700 Mionix Sargas 320 Philips O'neill Stretch Headphones 
AudioAudio
ASUS Xonar DGX Zalman Clip on mic  
  hide details  
Reply
post #74 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostrider85 View Post

Cloud computing is just a lame attempt to foil pirates.
You've got your head in the clouds my friend.
post #75 of 109
"High end gaming system" "We're using the cloud and a 'collection of devices" wow Micro$oft thats great!!!
post #76 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by MR_Plow View Post

I'm more interested in these questions he raised.
You kind of just chose the first question he asked, but really the others are probably more legitimate concerns.
Considering the fact that this was advertised as a way to push a "few" calculations to the cloud, the ability of the client hardware to run the assumed majority of the game is a little important. I suppose it could be possible that the lower the client system specs, the more goes to the cloud. This would of course be relevant because the amount of calculations the server side is computing would greatly impact speed (just like any calculation on any system). Still, my priority concerns are the four later questions compared to the first earlier question.

Not that it matters I suppose as I could never verify this, but I didn't even think of this as an Xbox v PS thing until I saw it in the comments here, which is admittedly silly considering the text in the first post. Honestly, I'm just thinking about this as it applies to games in general since the mindset has a high probability of crossing over to other platforms. I also don't own an XB1 or PS4 if that helps my credibility any.

Okay then.

Considering this was a PC demo, I don't believe I'm going out on too long a limb when I say that Microsoft will not have to deliver at all outside of releases. PC multiplayer gaming has a long, long history of using dedicated servers. The most likely and efficient scenario is that the server computes all physics, or just specific object types like buildings, and sends out the results to the clients. On consoles your guess is as good as mine, but I'd say they're just beefing up their own to be able to more efficiently handle the physics calcs if this is true. Unless there was something earlier in the presentation where they covered it, they don't say it's the "cloud" of machines connected to the game that is processing the physics. Ten gets you one it's all server-side.

As for connection, your guess is as good as mine. But like I already said, there is no point going off the deep end and writing it off since I am certain they know a hell of a lot more than any of us how to deliver.

If this is all handled server side then we're going to be looking at increased requirements for dedis which will make monthly upkeep more expensive for which ever games are released with this.

Does that adequately address them?
post #77 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by bencher View Post

Not everything can be cloud based.

But I will wait to see cause there are alot of things I thought could not be done then it got done...

No, not everything can be cloud based. This is what market segmentation is about. I didn't think that a lot of things could happen, but here we are......
Simplicity
(11 items)
 
Apotheosis
(10 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
4770k Asus Z87 Pro TBD Corsair Vengeance (2x8GB) DDR3 1600 RAM 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Pro Dell U2713HM Alienware TactX gaming Seasonic 850W Gold  
CaseMouse
Cooler Master HAF XB Alienware TactX premium mouse 
  hide details  
Reply
Simplicity
(11 items)
 
Apotheosis
(10 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
4770k Asus Z87 Pro TBD Corsair Vengeance (2x8GB) DDR3 1600 RAM 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Pro Dell U2713HM Alienware TactX gaming Seasonic 850W Gold  
CaseMouse
Cooler Master HAF XB Alienware TactX premium mouse 
  hide details  
Reply
post #78 of 109
I'm sure I am in the minority here but I'm old so I fear the cloud. Why? because once games move to the cloud you lose control of well, everything. No real ownership of anything physical or local code control which would probably mean no modding unless supported by the developers and most importantly, no Nostalgia fixes once these games go offline forever as they inevitably will do to age. But alas, I doubt many youngsters think too far in the future or think they would care but they will.

Then there is the issue of the Infrastructure obviously as there are still a lot of people like myself stuck on Satellite with insanely low caps and insanely high latency.
     
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Ryzen 7 1800X ASRock Taichi X370 MSI GTX 1070 ARMOR OC  G.SKILL Ripjaws V 16GB DDR4 3200MHz 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
(Corsair Force LS SSD 120GB) (2 WD 2TB) ASUS DVD-RW  DEEPCOOL GAMMAXX GT  Windows 10 Home 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
(Monitor: Samsung SM 2333T) (TV: LG 49UH6030) Logitech K520 SeaSonic SSR-650RM  Cooler Master HAF XB EVO 
MouseMouse Pad
Logitech M510 Cloth Pad 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
Intel Core i7 4790k 4.5GHz ASUS Z97 PRO GAMER G.SKILL Ripjaws X 16GB DDR3 2133MHz (Corsair Force LS SSD 120GB) (WD 2TB)  
Optical DriveOSPowerCase
ASUS DVD-RW  Windows 10 Home Corsair RM650 Black NZXT Source 210  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i7 2600k ASUS P8P67 WS Revolution  EVGA GTX 680 4GB w/Backplate G.SKILL Ripjaws X 8GB DDR3 1600MHz 
Hard DriveOSPowerCase
(Micro Center SSD 60GB) (WD 1TB) Windows 10 Thermaltake Toughpower 750w Rosewill CHALLENGER  
  hide details  
Reply
     
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Ryzen 7 1800X ASRock Taichi X370 MSI GTX 1070 ARMOR OC  G.SKILL Ripjaws V 16GB DDR4 3200MHz 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
(Corsair Force LS SSD 120GB) (2 WD 2TB) ASUS DVD-RW  DEEPCOOL GAMMAXX GT  Windows 10 Home 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
(Monitor: Samsung SM 2333T) (TV: LG 49UH6030) Logitech K520 SeaSonic SSR-650RM  Cooler Master HAF XB EVO 
MouseMouse Pad
Logitech M510 Cloth Pad 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
Intel Core i7 4790k 4.5GHz ASUS Z97 PRO GAMER G.SKILL Ripjaws X 16GB DDR3 2133MHz (Corsair Force LS SSD 120GB) (WD 2TB)  
Optical DriveOSPowerCase
ASUS DVD-RW  Windows 10 Home Corsair RM650 Black NZXT Source 210  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i7 2600k ASUS P8P67 WS Revolution  EVGA GTX 680 4GB w/Backplate G.SKILL Ripjaws X 8GB DDR3 1600MHz 
Hard DriveOSPowerCase
(Micro Center SSD 60GB) (WD 1TB) Windows 10 Thermaltake Toughpower 750w Rosewill CHALLENGER  
  hide details  
Reply
post #79 of 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caples View Post

Okay then.

Considering this was a PC demo, I don't believe I'm going out on too long a limb when I say that Microsoft will not have to deliver at all outside of releases. PC multiplayer gaming has a long, long history of using dedicated servers. The most likely and efficient scenario is that the server computes all physics, or just specific object types like buildings, and sends out the results to the clients. On consoles your guess is as good as mine, but I'd say they're just beefing up their own to be able to more efficiently handle the physics calcs if this is true. Unless there was something earlier in the presentation where they covered it, they don't say it's the "cloud" of machines connected to the game that is processing the physics. Ten gets you one it's all server-side.

As for connection, your guess is as good as mine. But like I already said, there is no point going off the deep end and writing it off since I am certain they know a hell of a lot more than any of us how to deliver.

If this is all handled server side then we're going to be looking at increased requirements for dedis which will make monthly upkeep more expensive for which ever games are released with this.

Does that adequately address them?

Yes and no, I think.

I think some wires are getting crossed somewhere. If I'm understanding you correctly in this sentence "Unless there was something earlier in the presentation where they covered it, they don't say it's the "cloud" of machines connected to the game that is processing the physics," it sounds like you're now calling a group of user's machines "the cloud." After checking wikipedia to double check myself (I know, whatever), that's definitely not the popular definition of that phrase. When it has anything to do with marketing of colloquial usage, could computing pretty much just means "using servers to do the work."
To prove I'm not trying to be condescending: If we are on the same page of what cloud computing refers to, I'll say that I'm honestly still confused as to whether you're agreeing with me that the cloud is only getting a relatively small number of calculations. If you are, good, if not, maybe we should both watch the video again.
I honestly can't tell you how multiplayer games work with who computes what, but is there any problem with using a single player experience (such as the one in the demo)? That situation doesn't normally require the passage of information to and from servers (excluding DRM), but with a system like this ping would become important for single player games as well. Even if you're not competing with other humans, lag isn't fun.

See the "I'm sure they know what they're doing" thing is kind of the problem. In a perfect world, yeah they maybe thought it out or found a way to send info over low bandwidth. But in order for me to believe something out of the ordinary like that, I'm going to need some explanation on how they'll do it. Maybe they're just appealing to the middle ground in terms of internet speeds and anyone below the median will be screwed. If this were the case and the system catches on, a good chunk of those farmers playing games are going to be screwed.

That's my personal biggest issue and as you say, there's nothing we really know about it. Until they tell us something though, I'm going to assume they haven't had some sort of compressing miracle breakthrough and that large computations are going to require a speedy internet connection.

The remaining point we agree on, it sounds like we differ on how appealing that will be for companies and if that will be a big deal. I think that's going to be problematic and if the presented system is used to support the thousands (or whatever) players they're going to need to make some huge purchases in addition to the upkeep.
post #80 of 109
LOL

"Oh crap, the buildings exploding now Steve, go wander out and look somewhere else so they don't see the framerate drop"
Sabertooth
(18 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i7 4770k @4.5 GHz Asus Z87 Pro PowerColor R9 290X BF4 Edition Corsair/G.Skill 16GB @ 1600 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Sandisk Ultra Plus 256GB WD1002FAEX Caviar Black 1TB  Samsung HD502HJ 500GB Samsung HD501LJ 500GB 
Optical DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Lite-ON 24X CD/DVD Burner  Antec H20 620 w/ AP-15 Push-Pull Windows 7 Pro  Acer G276HL 27" 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Das Keyboard Pro w/ MX Blues Corsair HX850 Cooler Master HAF 922 Microsoft IE 3.0 
Mouse Pad
Steelseries Qck 
  hide details  
Reply
Sabertooth
(18 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i7 4770k @4.5 GHz Asus Z87 Pro PowerColor R9 290X BF4 Edition Corsair/G.Skill 16GB @ 1600 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Sandisk Ultra Plus 256GB WD1002FAEX Caviar Black 1TB  Samsung HD502HJ 500GB Samsung HD501LJ 500GB 
Optical DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Lite-ON 24X CD/DVD Burner  Antec H20 620 w/ AP-15 Push-Pull Windows 7 Pro  Acer G276HL 27" 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Das Keyboard Pro w/ MX Blues Corsair HX850 Cooler Master HAF 922 Microsoft IE 3.0 
Mouse Pad
Steelseries Qck 
  hide details  
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Software News
Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Software News › [//build 2014/Youtube] Microsoft Cloud Gaming Prototype (you definitely wanna see this)